In Memoriam: 9/12/01 List Archive

Introduction | 9.11.01 | 9.12.01 | 9.13.01





FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Tue 23:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

I'm not totally on board with Tim here, but I do think it is ironic that our
President is appealing to God.  Not just god in the abstract,
looking-beyond-ourselves-for-salvation-or-understanding sense of god.  It's
the Christian (and maybe Jewish) God.

Thus, one of our chief virtues as a state, the separation of church and
state, is undermined, potentially leading to the kind of state-enforced
intolerance and religious war that we deplore in these terrorists.  I would
be deeply disturbed if this whole thing got framed in a Good Christian vs.
Bad Muslim holy war.

If that happens, we have lost already.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim <mailto:wwwac@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:30 PM
> To: Silicon Alley Station; wwwac@...
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> 
> 
> 1) You could at least spell his name right...
> 
> 2) Obviously not.  Bombing Libya didn't stop this from 
> happening.  Maybe
> such an action would rob these bastards of some financing, 
> but you're not
> going to kill them all, or destroy all their resources, or 
> stop them at
> all.  Meanwhile, you *will* be killing citizens of foreign 
> nations who are
> MORE INNOCENT than you, since they live under a government 
> which refuses their
> participation.
> 
> You share blame for every act of violence and murder 
> perpetrated by the USA
> since you became of age to vote.
> 
> Some poor fucker in Afghanistan doesn't get to participate in 
> his state's
> policies.  But fuck it, right, we're GOD'S PEOPLE, and we 
> ought to BOMB THE
> FUCKERS BACK TO THE STONE AGE.
> 
> Do you think whatever nation we bomb the shit out of is going 
> to get any sort
> of due process?  You consider due process for yourself a 
> right, but now, fuck
> it - let's just find the most likely candidate and proceed 
> with the BUSINESS
> OF WAR.
> 
> Aren't you a little bit afraid that our fearless leaders are 
> likely to be a
> little hasty here?  I mean, who's doing the investigation, 
> and who's doing
> the bombing, and how far apart are they?  Not to sound like a 
> conspiracy nut,
> but I do not trust the current administration to be honest 
> here.  It's like
> when a horrible crime is committed, and the prosecutor feels 
> pressure for
> a conviction - corners get cut and people (even *with* due 
> process in many
> cases) are unjustly punished.
> 
> But, fuck it, right?  We're GOD'S PEOPLE, right?  Right?
> 
> -THL
> 
> At 11:05 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, Silicon Alley Station wrote:
> >If you don't think retaliatory bombing has a dampening 
> effect, ask Kadafy.
> >
> >dolly Nielsen
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tim" <wwwac@...>
> >To: <wwwac@...>
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:52 PM
> >Subject: RE: [wwwac] war?
> >
> >
> > > Except that since we're ostensibly a democracy, the 
> American people *are*
> > > ostensibly the government.  The same government that is 
> responsible for an
> > > awful lot death, directly and indirectly, around the world.
> > >
> > > So let's go bomb so people somewhere who can't vote and 
> have more or less
> >zero
> > > say in what their government does/pays for.
> > >
> > > Also, do you really think some bombing campaign, or even 
> a land war, has
> >any
> > > chance of deterring terrorism?  It's more of an 
> incitement.  We're not
> >talking
> > > about someone invading the country with an army made up 
> of the husbands
> >and
> > > sons of some foreign democracy.
> > >
> > > Even better, what if they were *domestic* terrorists.  I 
> guess we should
> >just
> > > bomb ourselves.
> > >
> > > I can understand the outrage, but you "rah-rah war!" 
> types really need to
> > > get your heads on straight and think with your minds, not 
> your hearts.
> > >
> > > -THL
> > >
> > > At 09:49 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the 
> fear that
> > > > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of 
> another needless war.
> > > >
> > > >We're not talking about vietnam here, which essentially 
> became a needless
> > > >war. we're talking about terrorists who attacked and 
> killed thousands of
> > > >americans for no reason other than the fact that we're 
> americans. we're
> > > >talking about lunatics who need to be stopped. Bombs 
> need to be dropped,
> >and
> > > >a clear message that this will not be tolorated needs to 
> be sent. Its
> >only
> > > >needless when american's haven't been killed - the 
> palestinian/israliei
> > > >conflict is needless, and just plain stupid - 
> retaliating for a full
> >scale,
> > > >well planned attack on this country is not needless, its 
> not stupid, and
> >it
> > > >needs to be done.
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: eidoru design <mailto:eidoru@...>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:36 PM
> > > >To: wwwac@...
> > > >Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >War, in the sense of military action, seems 
> inevitable, no? But what
> > > > >is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various 
> states who
> > > > >hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> > > >
> > > >perhaps any powers that the US are threatened by ... 
> i've felt that
> > > >the gov'rnment has been ready and ripe for the chance 
> and reason to
> > > >declare war, due to our economic state and (general) 
> position in the
> > > >eyes of the world.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with 
> delight over
> > > > >this atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing 
> guns into the air
> > > > >in "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens of
> > > > >thousands of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them
> > > > >myself.
> > > >
> > > >yes, but the palestinians view us as evil because the US 
> is one that
> > > >supplies the arms to Israel, most likely the same ones 
> used to shoot
> > > >palestinians down in their streets?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for
> > > > >vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that 
> understands that
> > > > >dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who disregard
> > > > >their own lives to do it more.
> > > >
> > > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> > > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another 
> needless war.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing 
> missiles at
> > > > >the usual suspects for a while.
> > > > >
> > > > >I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.
> > > >
> > > >i agree. we've hit a crucial turning point today.
> > > >
> > > >jana
> > > >eidoru design
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > ><insert witty quote here>
> > > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Tue 23:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] explosives under GW bridge

They have arrested 3 people, but there were no explosives.  The cause of the
arrest is unknown.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kim B. Foglia <mailto:wwwac@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:59 PM
> To: WWWAC list
> Subject: [wwwac] explosives under GW bridge
> 
> 
> CBS just reported that explosives were fund under GW Bridge and 
> people were arrested.
> 
> 
> Kim B. Foglia
> Chief Creative Officer
> Galt Corporation
> http://www.galtcorporation.com
> 631.756.0200 x204 voice
> 631.756.0789 fax






FROM: laurie kilmartin
DATE: Wed 00:25
SUBJ: [wwwac] who's responsible

I put "all American" in quotes hoping everyone would know I was drawing on
an already existing stereotype- not trying to exclude anyone.
--





Laurie Kilmartin
http://www.kilmartin.com

> From: Joanna Wissinger <joanna@...>
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:58:49 -0400
> To: laurie kilmartin <laurie@...>, <grimmwerks@...>
> Cc: <wwwac@...>
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] who's responsible
> 
> well ... lots of "all american" types like me (descendent of
> Mayflower travellers and fighters in the American Revolution) have
> dark hair and tan skin and don't look like we're from Nebraska. So
> where are you going to draw the line.
> 
> 
> At 1:49 PM -0400 9/11/01, laurie kilmartin wrote:
>> But they're always claiming an attack is imminent, aren't they? I think it
>> would be much easier for white, blonde blue-eyed McVeigh-looking terrorists
>> to hijack *so many* airplanes as opposed to anyone of Middle Eastern origin.
>> It's still such an unthinkable attack-  an "All- American" looking terrorist
>> might be able to still pass through our lax security.
>> 
>> Laurie
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joanna Wissinger
> c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
> content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
> what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq






FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Tue 21:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] explosives under GW bridge

DWB ?

racial profiling ?

--- "Shirley, Scott" <SShirley@...> wrote:
> They have arrested 3 people, but there were no
> explosives.  The cause of the
> arrest is unknown.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kim B. Foglia <mailto:wwwac@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:59 PM
> > To: WWWAC list
> > Subject: [wwwac] explosives under GW bridge
> > 
> > 
> > CBS just reported that explosives were fund under
> GW Bridge and 
> > people were arrested.
> > 
> > 
> > Kim B. Foglia
> > Chief Creative Officer
> > Galt Corporation
> > http://www.galtcorporation.com
> > 631.756.0200 x204 voice
> > 631.756.0789 fax


=====
Scott Wickham

74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt 
Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com    
for Sale by owner

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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FROM: phill.legault
DATE: Wed 00:30
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

Whoa...

1) Even Khaddafi can't spell his own name consistently.
http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg052899.html

2) Libya never attempted anything even remotely as despicable as this...
yes, disease and starvation have caused more deaths than bombs but you're
talking apples and oranges. This is an unquestionable act of war -
limp-wristed strategic bombings will not be expected.

More innocent? Blow me. A bunch of people I never knew but are eternally
indebted to busted their collective asses for the right to tell the
government what to do... those "innocents" are free to do the same. The
complication that arises from the the pussy-footed
embargo-sanctions-demonstrations contingency that doesn't make any sense is
that this somehow will be attributed to their oppressive governments instead
of the "Devils" of the US.  The argument that we need to take responsibility
for every nuance and intrigue of our government while no other
government/nation is held to the same standard is a fucking copout.

And dude, this bullshit about "God's People" is a crock... this country is
fucking founded on religious tolerance. Currency minutiae notwithstanding,
what will come will not be a Jihad. What you just witnessed is an attempt at
a fucking Jihad, and that's COMPLETELY COUNTER to any sort of religious
tolerance. Be it Muslim, Ultra-Right Christian or fucking Buddhist- do not
throw religion into this issue because it is almost assuredly at the heart
of this (coordinated suicide bombers are not know to be agnostic, atheist,
non-committal-types). You are playing with a fire that you can't control.

Hastiness? No. Those responsible, and ONLY those responsible must be made
accountable - regardless of race color, creed, sexual-orientation, etc. Bomb
WHOMEVER back to the Stone Age and make sure they really feel it.

But don't for a second try to justify inaction. You're gonna lose.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim" <wwwac@...>
To: "Silicon Alley Station" <siliconalley@...>;
<wwwac@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?


> 1) You could at least spell his name right...
>
> 2) Obviously not.  Bombing Libya didn't stop this from happening.  Maybe
> such an action would rob these bastards of some financing, but you're not
> going to kill them all, or destroy all their resources, or stop them at
> all.  Meanwhile, you *will* be killing citizens of foreign nations who are
> MORE INNOCENT than you, since they live under a government which refuses
their
> participation.
>
> You share blame for every act of violence and murder perpetrated by the
USA
> since you became of age to vote.
>
> Some poor fucker in Afghanistan doesn't get to participate in his state's
> policies.  But fuck it, right, we're GOD'S PEOPLE, and we ought to BOMB
THE
> FUCKERS BACK TO THE STONE AGE.
>
> Do you think whatever nation we bomb the shit out of is going to get any
sort
> of due process?  You consider due process for yourself a right, but now,
fuck
> it - let's just find the most likely candidate and proceed with the
BUSINESS
> OF WAR.
>
> Aren't you a little bit afraid that our fearless leaders are likely to be
a
> little hasty here?  I mean, who's doing the investigation, and who's doing
> the bombing, and how far apart are they?  Not to sound like a conspiracy
nut,
> but I do not trust the current administration to be honest here.  It's
like
> when a horrible crime is committed, and the prosecutor feels pressure for
> a conviction - corners get cut and people (even *with* due process in many
> cases) are unjustly punished.
>
> But, fuck it, right?  We're GOD'S PEOPLE, right?  Right?
>
> -THL
>
> At 11:05 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, Silicon Alley Station wrote:
> >If you don't think retaliatory bombing has a dampening effect, ask
Kadafy.
> >
> >dolly Nielsen
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Tim" <wwwac@...>
> >To: <wwwac@...>
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:52 PM
> >Subject: RE: [wwwac] war?
> >
> >
> > > Except that since we're ostensibly a democracy, the American people
*are*
> > > ostensibly the government.  The same government that is responsible
for an
> > > awful lot death, directly and indirectly, around the world.
> > >
> > > So let's go bomb so people somewhere who can't vote and have more or
less
> >zero
> > > say in what their government does/pays for.
> > >
> > > Also, do you really think some bombing campaign, or even a land war,
has
> >any
> > > chance of deterring terrorism?  It's more of an incitement.  We're not
> >talking
> > > about someone invading the country with an army made up of the
husbands
> >and
> > > sons of some foreign democracy.
> > >
> > > Even better, what if they were *domestic* terrorists.  I guess we
should
> >just
> > > bomb ourselves.
> > >
> > > I can understand the outrage, but you "rah-rah war!" types really need
to
> > > get your heads on straight and think with your minds, not your hearts.
> > >
> > > -THL
> > >
> > > At 09:49 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> > > > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another needless
war.
> > > >
> > > >We're not talking about vietnam here, which essentially became a
needless
> > > >war. we're talking about terrorists who attacked and killed thousands
of
> > > >americans for no reason other than the fact that we're americans.
we're
> > > >talking about lunatics who need to be stopped. Bombs need to be
dropped,
> >and
> > > >a clear message that this will not be tolorated needs to be sent. Its
> >only
> > > >needless when american's haven't been killed - the
palestinian/israliei
> > > >conflict is needless, and just plain stupid - retaliating for a full
> >scale,
> > > >well planned attack on this country is not needless, its not stupid,
and
> >it
> > > >needs to be done.
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: eidoru design <mailto:eidoru@...>
> > > >Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:36 PM
> > > >To: wwwac@...
> > > >Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >War, in the sense of military action, seems inevitable, no? But
what
> > > > >is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various states who
> > > > >hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> > > >
> > > >perhaps any powers that the US are threatened by ... i've felt that
> > > >the gov'rnment has been ready and ripe for the chance and reason to
> > > >declare war, due to our economic state and (general) position in the
> > > >eyes of the world.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with delight over
> > > > >this atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing guns into the
air
> > > > >in "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens of
> > > > >thousands of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them
> > > > >myself.
> > > >
> > > >yes, but the palestinians view us as evil because the US is one that
> > > >supplies the arms to Israel, most likely the same ones used to shoot
> > > >palestinians down in their streets?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for
> > > > >vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that understands
that
> > > > >dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who disregard
> > > > >their own lives to do it more.
> > > >
> > > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> > > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another needless
war.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing missiles at
> > > > >the usual suspects for a while.
> > > > >
> > > > >I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.
> > > >
> > > >i agree. we've hit a crucial turning point today.
> > > >
> > > >jana
> > > >eidoru design
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > ><insert witty quote here>
> > > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+






FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Tue 21:41
SUBJ: [wwwac] war? ( a simplistic answer to why it all f'd up)

To oversimplify. 

Start With:
long before israle diffent countries in the middle
east fought each other all the time. See Iran Iraq
today,  And kuwait Iraq that lead to the Gulf war.
Only their hatred of Israle keeps them in anyway
friendly  to each other.

Throw in tons and tons of oil money. Which makes the
rest of the world kiss their asses. And allows them to
effectively buy anything they want.

Then throw in a religion that has a very very non
standard definition of the word innocent. And promises
paradice through Holy war.

Stir the pot for 50 years of cold war, increasing
religous zeal across the world (read Alvin Toffler
future shock about that general pattern)

What you end up is the mess we have today.

(side note: Imagine how much worse Ireland comflict
would be if the had tons and tons of oil money)

Hope this helps.





> I really am asking for opinions from those who know
> more. But lost (so far)
> in these threads is some consideration of *why* this
> country inspires such
> hatred. 
>  

=====
Scott Wickham

74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt 
Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com    
for Sale by owner

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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FROM: Brian McMullan
DATE: Wed 10:00
SUBJ: [wwwac] saving .rm files to disk


I am trying to save the following streaming viideo file to my hardrive.

rtsp://demand2.stream.aol.com/cnn/us/2001/09/11/exclusive.crash.cnn.med.rm

I placed <a href>s around it and when trying to save to disk i get the
following error.
'Download could not complete'

Any suggestions

thanks
Brian






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 00:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

Remember, the Middle East is an extremely complex and volatile situation.
Ben Laden has a beef with Israel.  He also has a beef with us as cultural
imperialists.  Muslim nations constantly struggle with maintaining their
religious traditions agains the incursions of US culture.  It's like a more
extreme version of the French (that's the first joke I've been able to make
today, so it might not be funny).

The Palestinians also have a beef with Israel.  In fact, they have multiple
beefs.

There is, of course, the struggle over real estate that goes back centuries.
That in itself is so complex that no one can definitively say who is right
or who "deserves" the land.  It's similar to Yugoslavia in that regard.

Then there is the religious conflict.  Most Palestinians are Muslims.
However, many are not; many are Christian.  Some are Muslims, but not Muslim
extremists.  So for some, this conflict is unimportant.  It is deeply
intertwined with the real estate issue, so there are many variations
possible there.

Finally, there are a lot of Palestinians, probably all of them, who just
want to be free.  They don't want to be forced from their homes in the
middle of the night.  They don't want to be shot at.  They don't want to
have their property seized.  They don't want to be interred and deported.
They don't want to be tortured.  They don't even want to do all the crappy
service jobs in Israel for almost no pay.  They just want to live normal
lives and they resent the extremists on both sides.

Then there is Israel.  Note that there is a difference between Jews, Judaism
and Israel.  It is possible to support one and not the other.  I've read
reports that the younger generations are less interested in the religion and
more interested in the perpetuation of the state.  Religion is used as a
background to create enthusiasm for state activities much like it is used by
Islamic fundamentalists and often our own leaders.  Even Saddam Hussein was
not particularly interested in religion until he needed to evoke the
anti-West sympathies of the Islamic extreme during the Gulf War.
Fortunately, it didn't work.

Also, to complicate things further, there are Islamic fundamentalists that
are our allies, such as Saudi Arabia.  They resent the cultural incursion of
the US (at least on the surface; Allah seems to turn a blind eye when the
leave the country), but they have other interests.

The interesting thing is that all this confusion is precisely what keeps the
powderkeg from exploding.  There has never been a reason for Arabs to
galvanize against the US (or Christians and Jews, depending how the conflict
is framed).  Keeping Egypt and Saudi and Syria on our side, as well as
Israel, is the key to working toward peace and keeps the situation defused
most of the time.  Frequently, someone gets impatient with the slow progress
and does something to undermine the situation, inciting extreme views.

An active dialog kept things relatively calm.  The current administration
has completely ignored the Middle East and frustrations have been rising.
It doesn't excuse the actions, but it can explain the timing and support
(probably temporary) of some in the region.  Bombing and arrests may have
some effect, but it's hard to know what they will be.  It could stop the
whole business.  It could force them underground until we forget or lose
interest, then it will happen again and we'll all be surprised and ask, "How
could this happen?"  It could also galvanize the extremists on all sides and
cause WWIII.  Pakistan, another Ben Laden supporter, does have nukes, though
the delivery mechanism may not be very sophisticated.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin T. Focazio <mailto:wwwac@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:05 PM
> To: eidoru design; wwwac@...
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> 
> 
> War, in the sense of military action, seems inevitable, no? But what 
> is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various states who 
> hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> 
> When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with delight over this 
> atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing guns into the air in 
> "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens of thousands 
> of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them myself.
> 
> I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for 
> vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that understands that 
> dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who disregard their 
> own lives to do it more.
> 
> In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing missiles at 
> the usual suspects for a while.
> 
> I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.






FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Tue 23:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Some Good news: The Hunger Site is back


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FROM: Joanna Wissinger
DATE: Tue 22:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] still stunned

My brain keeps tripping over the idea that the World Trade Towers are 
gone. I used to work in the Woolworth building and go to get lunch at 
that tossed salad place underneath Borders. I guess that part of the 
building is still there, sort of. I used to buy books at Borders and 
housewares at Lechters and band aids and sinus tabs at the Duane 
Reade and spritz perfumes at Sephora and check out the shoes at Nine 
West (where there was always a sale). I bought my nieces' 4th 
birthday gifts at the Store of Knowledge. I liked that bronze globe 
sculpture in the middle of the plaza. I bought all my vegetables for 
Thanksgiving '99 at the farmer's market next to Liberty Plaza.

And think of all the discount designer items at Century 21! Up in 
smoke? Or the Thai restaurant on the SE corner. The tables on the 
plaza. The stuff that I used to see every day. It must all be gone.

I saw a video clip of City Hall Park covered in soot and ash and 
debris. I used to buy vitamins at Willner Chemists on Broadway.

My brain is just refusing to take all this in.
-- 




Joanna Wissinger
c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 02:57
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?



<<The Palestinians also have a beef with Israel.  In fact, they have
multiple
beefs.>>

Yeah, the Palestinians hate Jews, and have always tried to kill them. 

My family was victemized by them in the 1820's and today, they demand a Jew
Free state.  This is like demanding say, a Puetro Rican Free NYC.


<<There is, of course, the struggle over real estate that goes back
centuries.>>

Not really.  From the Arab prespective, the struggle is over Race.  Jews
are non-citizens without rights and are summerly exectuted when it sits
right with the riegning despot.


<<That in itself is so complex that no one can definitively say who is
right
or who "deserves" the land.  It's similar to Yugoslavia in that regard.>>

Well, not really.  It's more like 800 years of continual repression of Jews
in the Holly Land by the Muslims somehow makes them beleive that they have
the right to establish a Jew Free state in that land.  All of it has Jewish
roots.... but we tend to share.



<<Then there is the religious conflict.  Most Palestinians are Muslims.
However, many are not; many are Christian.  Some are Muslims, but not
Muslim extremists. >>

Both in the war in Iraq and this bombing the local population cheered the
attack  of Democratic  societies, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Certainly, In Israel, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Druise are all equal
citizens.
This is not true in any Muslim dictatorship.

<<Finally, there are a lot of Palestinians, probably all of them, who just
want to be free. >>

They have a funny way of expressing it by supporting totalitarian
government, refusing to settle out of camps, refusing to live in peace with
their neighbors, and using their children's lives as political pawns.  They
also refuse to live with Jews....did I mention this.

In fact, I don't see how you have any basis for making a statement that
they want to live in freedom.  In Jordan they're love of freedom caused
Jordan to open fire on the whole population.  They have yet to draft
anything close to a constitution with a bill of rights.  So far the only
thing that they express with certainty is that they Hate Jews and will not
live with Jews, or tolerate a nation of Jews on their boarders.

This would be like the US declaring war of Qubec because they are Catholic,
and we can not have any Pope loving Frenchmen on American Soil.




<< They don't want to be forced from their homes in the
middle of the night.  >>

But they don't lmind do that to others.

<<They don't want to be shot at.>>

But they don't mind shooting at others.

<<They don't want to have their property seized.>>

But they don't mind seizing the property of others like they did in
Jerusalem and Hebron, and Safed.
 
<<They don't want to be interred and deported.>>

But they don't mind pushing all the Jews into the Ocean.

<<They don't want to be tortured.>>

But they don't mind torturing their neighbors.

<<They don't even want to do all the crappy
service jobs in Israel for almost no pay.  >>

But they don't mind ensalving Jews in the last 3 centuries and burdening
them with extream extortion.

<<They just want to live normal lives and they resent the extremists on
both sides.>>

This remains to be seen.  So far, there is no evidence to support this.


<<Then there is Israel.  Note that there is a difference between Jews,
Judaism and Israel.>>

Yes.  Jews are hated by Arabs and palestinians and have been merciessly
killed by them starting with the begining of their faith with the mass
executions of Jews in Medina.

As a result of torture, Jews have been defined as non-citizens and coralled
into a ghetto called the "Jewish Quater", similar to the ones in Europe. 
Today Jews have the might to prevent this abuse and formed a democratic
Governement called Isreal to protect Jews, so that they can be safe in
living their lives and practicing their religion.

So what is your point?  That if you support the destruction of Isreal, that
it's not anti-semitic inherently?   Because it is anti-semitic.

<<It is possible to support one and not the other.  I've read
reports that the younger generations are less interested in the religion
and more interested in the perpetuation of the state.  Religion is used as
a
background to create enthusiasm for state activities much like it is used
by Islamic fundamentalists and often our own leaders.  Even Saddam Hussein
was
not particularly interested in religion until he needed to evoke the
anti-West sympathies of the Islamic extreme during the Gulf War.
Fortunately, it didn't work.>>

Yeah, but Judaism can not be used to rally people to send they're 5 year
old children into battle against Iraqi tanks.  No can Judaism lend itself
to generating suicide martyrs who try to kill 100,000 people as an act of
symboblism and revenge.

Instead Judiasm lends itself to phrases such as that on the Liberty Bell,
"Proclaim Freedom thoguhotu the Land", and "Man does not live by bread
alone".

See the difference?



<<Also, to complicate things further, there are Islamic fundamentalists
that
are our allies, such as Saudi Arabia. >>

Yeah, those "Allies" made me change my Dog tags from Jewish to Muslim just
to enter their country because Jews were not allowed to enter Suadi
Arbia....

<<They resent the cultural incursion of the US (at least on the surface;
Allah seems to turn a blind eye when the leave the country), but they have
other interests.>>

They can turn off the TV.  But they put up with us because we are less evil
than Sadam Hussian...go figure.


<<The interesting thing is that all this confusion is precisely what keeps
the powderkeg from exploding.  There has never been a reason for Arabs to
galvanize against the US (or Christians and Jews, depending how the
conflict is framed).  Keeping Egypt and Saudi and Syria on our side, as
well as
Israel, is the key to working toward peace and keeps the situation defused
most of the time.>>


This all depends on a common infalstructure of moral sensibilities.  That
has not yet developed because the Muslim nations, to this point, do not
lend themselves to what we would consider a sense of liberty for all
peoples, or civil rights.

Obviously you are not aware that one bullet in Egypt can send it into an
islamic relovtion not much different than Afganastan or Iran.


Until the Arabs get their house in order, we need to support the protection
of Jews and other minorities int he region, including the Kurds.

Because it is the RIGHT thing to do...

Ruben
-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Karl Cooper
DATE: Wed 02:59
SUBJ: [wwwac] kabul on fire

Good point Jessie. I agree.


>From: "Jessica Elkin" <kvixen@...>
>To: "Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO" <ruben@...>
>CC: "wwwac" <wwwac@...>
>Subject: RE: [wwwac] kabul on fire
>Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:10:22 -0400
>
>I'm not going to try to defend someone I don't know nor will I assume that
>they are an anti-semite because of a sentence that they wrote in an e-mail.
>
>The last time I checked there are both jews and those of the islamic/muslim
>faiths living in Israel. My point is that the person you attacked in your
>e-mail never brought up religion. You did and your comment, "You've been
>waiting to blame this on Jews...", was totally unnecessary. This is the
>first time that religion has really been brought up today and you were the
>one who did so.
>
>And now you're attacking me which is also uncalled for. Let's not start
>fighting on the wwwac list about religion since it has nothing to do with
>the list. That is ALL that I'm saying.
>
>~Jessica
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions CEO <mailto:ruben@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:59 PM
> > To: Jessica Elkin
> > Cc: Brooklyn Linux Solutions; stas; Wwwac @ Lists . Wwwac . Org
> > Subject: Re: [wwwac] kabul on fire
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > You don't accidently equate Israel with a terrorist state that would
> > make it's best effort to exterminate 100,000 people.
> >
> >
> > It's not a mistake or a result of hieghtened nerves.
> >
> > It's a result of anti-semitism....
> >
> > Ruben
> >
> > > I didn't see that as a jab at jews and I'm Jewish. I think
> > we're all really
> > > upset right now and you're taking this in a direction that is totally
> > > unnecessary.
> > >
> > > Right now, we're all REALLY scared and angry about what has
> > happened in New
> > > York City. Let's all try to keep flaming at a minimum.
> > >
> > > ~Jessica
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions <mailto:ruben@...>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:49 PM
> > > > To: stas
> > > > Cc: Wwwac @ Lists . Wwwac . Org
> > > > Subject: RE: [wwwac] kabul on fire
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Really - That's a crock of shit.  Israel has never been on the State
> > > > Departments List of terrorist nations.  Israel has Arad
> > citizens.  Arabs
> > > > have demanded all Arab nations to be Jew Free.
> > > >
> > > > You've just been waiting to blame this on Jews....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2001.09.11 18:44:15 -0400 stas wrote:
> > > > I would put Israel on the same list. They are just as trained
> > to hate the
> > > > Arabs as the Arabs to hate the Israelis.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions <mailto:ruben@...>
> > > >
> > > > It doesn't matter.  All these nations have been proven supporters of
> > > > Terrorism, and they are all, IMO, at war with us and should
> > be occupied,
> > > > with a full military campain until we completely control the
> > > > these nations.
> > > >  Syria and Iran should also be on the list.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> > > http://www.mrbrklyn.com
> > > http://www.brooklynonline.com
> > >
> > > 1-718-382-5752


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp






FROM: Raphi Salem
DATE: Wed 04:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] war? and "something to think about ..."

Ruben,
Thank you for shedding some light into this thread. You forgot to cc: eidoru
design <eidoru@...>
In Jana's post of "something to think about ...," the quote reads
"If it really was Palestinians, as much as I hate to say this.. I sort of
understand.."
and
"This terrorism really sucks, .. but we should also look at what we have
been doing too the last 20 years.. and why a people felt so driven to do
this to us.."

Can you say - blatant anti-zionism = blatant anti-Semitism?
The writer makes a number of false statements regarding Israel that I am
afraid are easily accepted as truth. The person never lived in Israel but
has visited Israel. Does this make the person an expert on
Israeli-Palestinian issues? I don't think so.

I HAVE lived in Israel for many years. I have also lived in the USA for many
years. I am a dual citizen. I believe in peace and I believe in a land for
all races, nations and religions. The Jewish State is entitled to its own
homeland as much as the Palestinian people. The Jewish State entitles ALL
people who live within its borders (not annexed) to become citizens. The
Jewish State is the ONLY democracy in the Middle East. The Jewish State of
Israel lets its citizens vote, drive on its roads (with ISRAELI citizen
license plates) work in ANY profession they choose to, have freedom of
religion, freedom of the press and walk about freely on its
streets...though...

...Perhaps people forget about basic security measures that any law
enforcement agency must carry out in times of danger. Now, yes, if a
suspicious looking person is walking around downtown Jerusalem with a heavy
knapsack and is sweating profusely, they are going to be stopped, asked for
their ID and have his knapsack checked for a bomb. Are you telling me that
the van on the GW bridge earlier this evening should NOT have been checked
for explosives? It is ridiculous to me when people complain about roadblocks
and waiting in security lines. If we had more security, their would be less
mayhem today.

ISRAEL is NOT racist and I will prove that to anyone who will listen and
discuss with an open mind, logically and historically. I will not accept the
fact that the Jews and Israel are to blame and that my whole life, religion
and beliefs are wrong.

The fact is that terrorists hijacked American civilian planes, crashed them
into civilian areas and killed tens of thousands of innocent people. There
is no justification. This is an act of war. (Worse than Pearl Harbor, but
then it was easy to blame the Japanese - now its not so easy...) Don't blame
anyone for anything until you have completely researched the facts. I can't
wait to hear those black boxes. I can't wait to hear what the demands will
be tomorrow. I can't wait to hear more of the news - the US claims that it
will not stop until it hunts down all who are involved - I hope so! I want
peace of course, but isn't it human nature to also seek revenge? Countries
that are harboring these terrorists - watch out! (Afghanistan being the only
one mentioned on the radio right now.)

How DARE anyone on this list or in our free world put blame on US and
Israeli policies over the last 20 years for the atrocious activities that
took place yesterday! I am sick to my stomach and nauseous. What do you mean
you can understand? If you can understand, you might be in danger of
supporting these types of activities. I CAN NOT understand an act like this.
My religion, Zionistic beliefs, democratic and peace loving values will not
ever understand how someone can carry out such an horrific act. This was NOT
the only way to create awareness that policies are bad and the Palestinians
need a state. We have been to the negotiating table countless times. These
people don't want to negotiate. They want death. If they wanted to negotiate
they would have taken hostages. Instead they kill innocent people that are
our families, relatives and friends.

Unfortunately, Arafat does not rule the Middle East. If he did, we might
have a chance for a lasting peace with two states. Instead, we have crazy
fundamentalist fanatics with guns and money. (In this case though - all they
needed was a few pocket knives and cardboard boxcutters.) Arafat condemns
the attacks but many of his people (whether forced to or not) celebrate in
the streets by dancing and throwing candy. Arafat had the offer for his own
State at Oslo. Arafat received the Nobel peace prize back in the early 90's.
The true problem is that Arafat is just a pawn in this whole
anti-Zionist-anti-Jewish land game. There are forces much more powerful than
he. He was not in a position to accept the Oslo accord. He is lucky to be
alive. Frankly I am surprised. Maybe his security service is better than
ours? Can someone please tell us who is the REAL decision maker in the
Middle East? If Israel were to give Arafat all of the Gaza Strip and the
West Bank, would yesterdays atrocity have happened?

As for policies over the past 20 years, lets not only review how much money
we give in foreign aid to developing countries, (another false statement in
the last post, yes Israel does receive billions of dollars in foreign aid
from the USA. Egypt receives an equal amount according to the
Sadat-Begin-Carter agreements in the 70's. And now Arafat and other
potential allies receive millions.)...lets also review our OIL policies with
OPEC. We pay HOW MUCH for oil and gasoline to fill up our cars to drive to
work to fuel our innocent American lives?

On a final note, I will leave you all with one anti-Semitic post I received
earlier this evening from someone who wrote to me anonymously at
jewishweb.com. You can judge for yourself whether this is helping the world
be a better place.
Name: oscar goldstein mailto:og@... (Through a form so I don't know if
the name and address are real)
Message: you jews are the cause of todays terrorists attacks. if the u.s.
would leave israel alone, not give you high tech equipment to shoot and bomb
civilians, not give you billions of my tax dollard a year, the arabs and the
u.s. would be friends.
---
Peace to all. Try to have a good day. Give blood, volunteer and help thy
neighbor...don't blame him.
r
Raphi Salem
WorldWide JewishWeb
www.JewishWeb.com
SalemGlobal Internet Web Design and Programming
www.salemglobal.com
315 West 36th Street #508
NY, NY 10018
T) 212-736-9636
F) 212-736-2896
raphis@...
----- Original Message -----
From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...>
To: "Shirley, Scott" <SShirley@...>
Cc: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:57 AM
Subject: RE: [wwwac] war?


>
>
> <<The Palestinians also have a beef with Israel.  In fact, they have
> multiple
> beefs.>>
>
> Yeah, the Palestinians hate Jews, and have always tried to kill them.
>
> My family was victemized by them in the 1820's and today, they demand a
Jew
> Free state.  This is like demanding say, a Puetro Rican Free NYC.
>
>
> <<There is, of course, the struggle over real estate that goes back
> centuries.>>
>
> Not really.  From the Arab prespective, the struggle is over Race.  Jews
> are non-citizens without rights and are summerly exectuted when it sits
> right with the riegning despot.
>
>
> <<That in itself is so complex that no one can definitively say who is
> right
> or who "deserves" the land.  It's similar to Yugoslavia in that regard.>>
>
> Well, not really.  It's more like 800 years of continual repression of
Jews
> in the Holly Land by the Muslims somehow makes them beleive that they have
> the right to establish a Jew Free state in that land.  All of it has
Jewish
> roots.... but we tend to share.
>
>
>
> <<Then there is the religious conflict.  Most Palestinians are Muslims.
> However, many are not; many are Christian.  Some are Muslims, but not
> Muslim extremists. >>
>
> Both in the war in Iraq and this bombing the local population cheered the
> attack  of Democratic  societies, so I'm not sure what your point is.
>
> Certainly, In Israel, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Druise are all equal
> citizens.
> This is not true in any Muslim dictatorship.
>
> <<Finally, there are a lot of Palestinians, probably all of them, who just
> want to be free. >>
>
> They have a funny way of expressing it by supporting totalitarian
> government, refusing to settle out of camps, refusing to live in peace
with
> their neighbors, and using their children's lives as political pawns.
They
> also refuse to live with Jews....did I mention this.
>
> In fact, I don't see how you have any basis for making a statement that
> they want to live in freedom.  In Jordan they're love of freedom caused
> Jordan to open fire on the whole population.  They have yet to draft
> anything close to a constitution with a bill of rights.  So far the only
> thing that they express with certainty is that they Hate Jews and will not
> live with Jews, or tolerate a nation of Jews on their boarders.
>
> This would be like the US declaring war of Qubec because they are
Catholic,
> and we can not have any Pope loving Frenchmen on American Soil.
>
>
>
>
> << They don't want to be forced from their homes in the
> middle of the night.  >>
>
> But they don't lmind do that to others.
>
> <<They don't want to be shot at.>>
>
> But they don't mind shooting at others.
>
> <<They don't want to have their property seized.>>
>
> But they don't mind seizing the property of others like they did in
> Jerusalem and Hebron, and Safed.
>
> <<They don't want to be interred and deported.>>
>
> But they don't mind pushing all the Jews into the Ocean.
>
> <<They don't want to be tortured.>>
>
> But they don't mind torturing their neighbors.
>
> <<They don't even want to do all the crappy
> service jobs in Israel for almost no pay.  >>
>
> But they don't mind ensalving Jews in the last 3 centuries and burdening
> them with extream extortion.
>
> <<They just want to live normal lives and they resent the extremists on
> both sides.>>
>
> This remains to be seen.  So far, there is no evidence to support this.
>
>
> <<Then there is Israel.  Note that there is a difference between Jews,
> Judaism and Israel.>>
>
> Yes.  Jews are hated by Arabs and palestinians and have been merciessly
> killed by them starting with the begining of their faith with the mass
> executions of Jews in Medina.
>
> As a result of torture, Jews have been defined as non-citizens and
coralled
> into a ghetto called the "Jewish Quater", similar to the ones in Europe.
> Today Jews have the might to prevent this abuse and formed a democratic
> Governement called Isreal to protect Jews, so that they can be safe in
> living their lives and practicing their religion.
>
> So what is your point?  That if you support the destruction of Isreal,
that
> it's not anti-semitic inherently?   Because it is anti-semitic.
>
> <<It is possible to support one and not the other.  I've read
> reports that the younger generations are less interested in the religion
> and more interested in the perpetuation of the state.  Religion is used as
> a
> background to create enthusiasm for state activities much like it is used
> by Islamic fundamentalists and often our own leaders.  Even Saddam Hussein
> was
> not particularly interested in religion until he needed to evoke the
> anti-West sympathies of the Islamic extreme during the Gulf War.
> Fortunately, it didn't work.>>
>
> Yeah, but Judaism can not be used to rally people to send they're 5 year
> old children into battle against Iraqi tanks.  No can Judaism lend itself
> to generating suicide martyrs who try to kill 100,000 people as an act of
> symboblism and revenge.
>
> Instead Judiasm lends itself to phrases such as that on the Liberty Bell,
> "Proclaim Freedom thoguhotu the Land", and "Man does not live by bread
> alone".
>
> See the difference?
>
>
>
> <<Also, to complicate things further, there are Islamic fundamentalists
> that
> are our allies, such as Saudi Arabia. >>
>
> Yeah, those "Allies" made me change my Dog tags from Jewish to Muslim just
> to enter their country because Jews were not allowed to enter Suadi
> Arbia....
>
> <<They resent the cultural incursion of the US (at least on the surface;
> Allah seems to turn a blind eye when the leave the country), but they have
> other interests.>>
>
> They can turn off the TV.  But they put up with us because we are less
evil
> than Sadam Hussian...go figure.
>
>
> <<The interesting thing is that all this confusion is precisely what keeps
> the powderkeg from exploding.  There has never been a reason for Arabs to
> galvanize against the US (or Christians and Jews, depending how the
> conflict is framed).  Keeping Egypt and Saudi and Syria on our side, as
> well as
> Israel, is the key to working toward peace and keeps the situation defused
> most of the time.>>
>
>
> This all depends on a common infalstructure of moral sensibilities.  That
> has not yet developed because the Muslim nations, to this point, do not
> lend themselves to what we would consider a sense of liberty for all
> peoples, or civil rights.
>
> Obviously you are not aware that one bullet in Egypt can send it into an
> islamic relovtion not much different than Afganastan or Iran.
>
>
> Until the Arabs get their house in order, we need to support the
protection
> of Jews and other minorities int he region, including the Kurds.
>
> Because it is the RIGHT thing to do...
>
> Ruben
> --
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions
> http://www.mrbrklyn.com
> http://www.brooklynonline.com
>
> 1-718-382-5752






FROM: Tim
DATE: Wed 02:43
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

Scott,

         I can sympathize with your anger.

         But I believe in ethics and morality.   I am young, so perhaps I'm
         a bit of an idealist wrt the majority.  If I saw a woman being beaten,
         raped or murdered, I'd act.

         If I saw the result of the such crime, but was unsure of  the
         (specific) perpetrator, I'd investigate and prosecute; not persecute.

         The rights of the American Citizenry are often said to be 
god-given.    I'm not religious, but I believe they are somehow cosmically
         significant (so maybe I am religious?).  "Do In Rome" is not valid.
         Either anyone should be plainly guilty beyond doubt before they're
         punished, or no one should be.  I believe everyone should be.

         God Bless America.

         You and "Are you now saying we have to enforce our ideas on everyone
         else in the world?".  I'm not. I'm saying we should apply our moral
         and ethical standards equally.  The only reason that you don't feel
         the need to apply those standards now is because you don't conceive
         of such a process being used against you.

         The idea of enforcing our ideas on others is one of the things that
         has contributed to this mess.  How many times has this country
         sinned on the basis of "supporting the FREEDOM FIGHTERS", or even
         just "PROTECTING THE CHILDREN".  America often is arrogant:

         God Bless America.

         I'm not saying we're an evil empire.  But we sure are


>If in your logic, we are our government. Then I have
>no problem killing to avenge the deaths of pregnant
>women going to work on a tuesday morning.

         Your statement is pretty nonsensical.  But there is a difference
         between how you feel, and how the MOST POWERFUL NATION in the world
         ought to react.

         As a private citizen, you're entitled to more leeway than our federal
         government.  This is evident in the law, see government censorship
         and privacy rules in comparison to those for Corporations 
or    individuals.

         As for "Legitamate Military Targets", if I were a foreigner who had
         serious beef with Western Economic Imperialism (imperialism is 
a        loaded term, but c'mon, the West Is The Best), I could pretty easily
         believe that the "Financial Capital Of The World" (thanks, ABC, NBC,
         CBS, and CNN) was in fact the command center for the greatest weapon
         we Americans have.

         I'm not being unpatriotic here.  We have a great system, but it's at
         the will of the people.  This works really well, except for when the
         people aren't THINKING very carefully about WHAT THEY THEMSELVES ARE
         DOING.

         My assumption is that there are (powerful) people who want an EXCUSE
         FOR WAR.  If you shoot down this assumption, you've got me 
pinned.  But
         I belive it.

         Don't let them CAPITALIZE ON YOUR PERSONAL ANGER.

         Urge your government to respond forcefully, but fairly.

         We do have standards to uphold...

-THL

At 08:47 PM 9/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>As I said before innocent will die. Move on.
>
>Two due process is a right for citizens of the USA.
>
>Are you now saying we have to enforce our ideas on
>everyone else in the world.
>
>When in Rome do as the Romans.
>
>More innocent (nice idea).
>
>Dead is dead,
>
>If in your logic, we are our government. Then I have
>no problem killing to avenge the deaths of pregnant
>women going to work on a tuesday morning.
>
>In fact I might even be chill if they just took out
>Pentagon and White house. they are ligtimate military
>targets.
>
>I also defend your right (if you are a us citizen) to
>spout your stupidly in public.
>
>But if you phyically harm women you bet I have no
>problem taking you or anyone else out.
>
>Can I be any clearer on this point.
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 09:36
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

Ari <bongwater@...> writes:

> yet, no one blew up the eiffel tower in paris or the tower of london
> because of it...

For what it's worth, we've been fighting a terrorist war for decades
that's been contributed to from buckets passed round in Irish bars in
New York, Boston and elsewhere.

Just a gentle reminder.

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 09:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

"Pame McMahon" <pame.mcmahon@...> writes:

> >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another needless war.
> 
> We're not talking about vietnam here, which essentially became a needless
> war. we're talking about terrorists who attacked and killed thousands of
> americans for no reason other than the fact that we're americans.

...think hard about why being American has made you a target. What
your governments and corporations have done that have led up to this.

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 09:38
SUBJ: [wwwac] war? ( a simplistic answer to why it all f'd up)

Scott Wickham <nylscottw@...> writes:

> (side note: Imagine how much worse Ireland comflict
> would be if the had tons and tons of oil money)

You mean like the drugs money they already have?

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 09:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] Blood in SoHo

Kathy Forer <kef@...> writes:

> So, if you know you're Type O (is that the universal type?), you're
> probably needed wherever you are.

O- is the universal donor, ISTR.

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Tim
DATE: Wed 03:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

At 12:30 AM 9/12/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Whoa...
>
>1) Even Khaddafi can't spell his own name consistently.
>http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg052899.html

Check your reference, but it's late and I might have missed it on the page,
but whatever.  Not very important.

>2) Libya never attempted anything even remotely as despicable as this...
>yes, disease and starvation have caused more deaths than bombs but you're
>talking apples and oranges. This is an unquestionable act of war -
>limp-wristed strategic bombings will not be expected.

My point exactly.  Though they might be sympathetize, if they're not guilty,
why should we "punish" them.

>More innocent? Blow me. A bunch of people I never knew but are eternally
>indebted to busted their collective asses for the right to tell the
>government what to do... those "innocents" are free to do the same. The
>complication that arises from the the pussy-footed
>embargo-sanctions-demonstrations contingency that doesn't make any sense is
>that this somehow will be attributed to their oppressive governments instead
>of the "Devils" of the US.

Let me try to follow your reasoning here.  A bunch of guys (for reasons we
can debate) died a LONG TIME AGO and instituted this nation.  Then, "those
'innocents' are free to do the same".  I wish I understood what you meant.
You mean "we" innocents, maybe?

Sounds good.  Some guys 200 years ago died, so we can't possibly be accessory
to any crime.  I'll buy it.  Right.

>   The argument that we need to take responsibility
>for every nuance and intrigue of our government while no other
>government/nation is held to the same standard is a fucking copout.

So we elect them to do our bidding, but we're not responsible for their 
actions?  Presumably, they are acting on their perception of our feelings, 
or at least because we think they might be smarter than us.  That's like 
the Nazi grunt saying "The boss said so!" and Hitler saying "It was the 
will of the people".  Who the fuck is accountable?  Nobody?

I think someone should be.

MAYBE IT'S MY FAULT TOO.

>And dude, this bullshit about "God's People" is a crock... this country is
>fucking founded on religious tolerance. Currency minutiae notwithstanding,
>what will come will not be a Jihad. What you just witnessed is an attempt at
>a fucking Jihad, and that's COMPLETELY COUNTER to any sort of religious
>tolerance. Be it Muslim, Ultra-Right Christian or fucking Buddhist- do not
>throw religion into this issue because it is almost assuredly at the heart
>of this (coordinated suicide bombers are not know to be agnostic, atheist,
>non-committal-types). You are playing with a fire that you can't control.

Ok "Do Not throw religion into the issue because it is almost assuredly a 
the heart of this".  Does that make any sense.  Religion is the 
problem!  All these PSYCHOPATHS ON BOTH SIDES believe, or at least profess 
to believe that "GOD IS  ON MY SIDE!".  That usually kills a lot of people.


>Hastiness? No. Those responsible, and ONLY those responsible must be made
>accountable - regardless of race color, creed, sexual-orientation, etc. Bomb
>WHOMEVER back to the Stone Age and make sure they really feel it.

I think it's pretty clear that figuring out who, exactly did this, and hasty
action may well be incompatible.  I'm a fan of "timely" action.  When we're 
absolutely sure we know who's responsible, and we have the opportunity to 
strike them with minimal collateral damage, then we do.  Not before.

Don't worry, we won't look like pussies.

Just like you said, "ONLY those responsible".  Haste is not going to further
that.

>But don't for a second try to justify inaction. You're gonna lose.

There is a big difference between inaction and responsible, well-thought-out,
ethically valid, and morally righteous (oops, going religious again) action.

Just cause you're hurt doesn't mean you can retaliate against the wrong guy.



>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tim" <wwwac@...>
>To: "Silicon Alley Station" <siliconalley@...>;
><wwwac@...>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
>
>
> > 1) You could at least spell his name right...
> >
> > 2) Obviously not.  Bombing Libya didn't stop this from happening.  Maybe
> > such an action would rob these bastards of some financing, but you're not
> > going to kill them all, or destroy all their resources, or stop them at
> > all.  Meanwhile, you *will* be killing citizens of foreign nations who are
> > MORE INNOCENT than you, since they live under a government which refuses
>their
> > participation.
> >
> > You share blame for every act of violence and murder perpetrated by the
>USA
> > since you became of age to vote.
> >
> > Some poor fucker in Afghanistan doesn't get to participate in his state's
> > policies.  But fuck it, right, we're GOD'S PEOPLE, and we ought to BOMB
>THE
> > FUCKERS BACK TO THE STONE AGE.
> >
> > Do you think whatever nation we bomb the shit out of is going to get any
>sort
> > of due process?  You consider due process for yourself a right, but now,
>fuck
> > it - let's just find the most likely candidate and proceed with the
>BUSINESS
> > OF WAR.
> >
> > Aren't you a little bit afraid that our fearless leaders are likely to be
>a
> > little hasty here?  I mean, who's doing the investigation, and who's doing
> > the bombing, and how far apart are they?  Not to sound like a conspiracy
>nut,
> > but I do not trust the current administration to be honest here.  It's
>like
> > when a horrible crime is committed, and the prosecutor feels pressure for
> > a conviction - corners get cut and people (even *with* due process in many
> > cases) are unjustly punished.
> >
> > But, fuck it, right?  We're GOD'S PEOPLE, right?  Right?
> >
> > -THL
> >
> > At 11:05 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, Silicon Alley Station wrote:
> > >If you don't think retaliatory bombing has a dampening effect, ask
>Kadafy.
> > >
> > >dolly Nielsen
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Tim" <wwwac@...>
> > >To: <wwwac@...>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:52 PM
> > >Subject: RE: [wwwac] war?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Except that since we're ostensibly a democracy, the American people
>*are*
> > > > ostensibly the government.  The same government that is responsible
>for an
> > > > awful lot death, directly and indirectly, around the world.
> > > >
> > > > So let's go bomb so people somewhere who can't vote and have more or
>less
> > >zero
> > > > say in what their government does/pays for.
> > > >
> > > > Also, do you really think some bombing campaign, or even a land war,
>has
> > >any
> > > > chance of deterring terrorism?  It's more of an incitement.  We're not
> > >talking
> > > > about someone invading the country with an army made up of the
>husbands
> > >and
> > > > sons of some foreign democracy.
> > > >
> > > > Even better, what if they were *domestic* terrorists.  I guess we
>should
> > >just
> > > > bomb ourselves.
> > > >
> > > > I can understand the outrage, but you "rah-rah war!" types really need
>to
> > > > get your heads on straight and think with your minds, not your hearts.
> > > >
> > > > -THL
> > > >
> > > > At 09:49 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> > > > > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> > > > > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another needless
>war.
> > > > >
> > > > >We're not talking about vietnam here, which essentially became a
>needless
> > > > >war. we're talking about terrorists who attacked and killed thousands
>of
> > > > >americans for no reason other than the fact that we're americans.
>we're
> > > > >talking about lunatics who need to be stopped. Bombs need to be
>dropped,
> > >and
> > > > >a clear message that this will not be tolorated needs to be sent. Its
> > >only
> > > > >needless when american's haven't been killed - the
>palestinian/israliei
> > > > >conflict is needless, and just plain stupid - retaliating for a full
> > >scale,
> > > > >well planned attack on this country is not needless, its not stupid,
>and
> > >it
> > > > >needs to be done.
> > > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: eidoru design <mailto:eidoru@...>
> > > > >Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:36 PM
> > > > >To: wwwac@...
> > > > >Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >War, in the sense of military action, seems inevitable, no? But
>what
> > > > > >is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various states who
> > > > > >hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> > > > >
> > > > >perhaps any powers that the US are threatened by ... i've felt that
> > > > >the gov'rnment has been ready and ripe for the chance and reason to
> > > > >declare war, due to our economic state and (general) position in the
> > > > >eyes of the world.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with delight over
> > > > > >this atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing guns into the
>air
> > > > > >in "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens of
> > > > > >thousands of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them
> > > > > >myself.
> > > > >
> > > > >yes, but the palestinians view us as evil because the US is one that
> > > > >supplies the arms to Israel, most likely the same ones used to shoot
> > > > >palestinians down in their streets?
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for
> > > > > >vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that understands
>that
> > > > > >dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who disregard
> > > > > >their own lives to do it more.
> > > > >
> > > > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> > > > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another needless
>war.
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing missiles at
> > > > > >the usual suspects for a while.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.
> > > > >
> > > > >i agree. we've hit a crucial turning point today.
> > > > >
> > > > >jana
> > > > >eidoru design
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > ><insert witty quote here>
> > > > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+






FROM: Tim
DATE: Wed 03:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] war? and "something to think about ..."

How much? Probably not nearly enough.

Innocent, hardly.

I can believe most of your post, but this sentence just struck me as crazy.

Alternative fuels *are* being repressed by the oil industry in america.

Americans also have a lot of blood on their hands.  We have to stop thinking
in a "look out for number one" mindset.  If you're number one, it means number
n+1 is going to be gunning for you.

Democracy doesn't mean everything we do is just and good.  It's just as 
easy for a whole society to commit acts of evil as it is for handful of 
terrorist.  It's not as direct, but the effects are just as real.

-THL


At 04:42 AM 9/12/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>We pay HOW MUCH for oil and gasoline to fill up our cars to drive to
>work to fuel our innocent American lives?






FROM: Tim
DATE: Wed 03:29
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

Scott,

         You make some excellent points.

         You're absolutely right that these are complicated issues.

         You're absolutely right that the leaders on all sides abuse the power
         of religion when it suits them.  Those who commited today's atrocities
         almost surely did, and our own president followed suit this evening.

         You're also right that the current administration has paid almost zero
         attention the middle east.  Americans are better diplomats than they
         are warriors, IMO.  This very well would have happened either way, but
         you're right to note the importance of long-term diplomacy.  The world
         will never be at peace; conflict will arise.  We can't stop it, we
         can only minimize it.  It's a thin line.

         Speaking of thin lines, you're right about galvanizing a lot of these
         fringe groups.  An indiscriminate attack on any nation believed to
         harbor terrorist will be viewed abroad as a massive power-bid by
         the US.  It is very possible that disparate groups would unite to
         defend themselves (in the long term) against a common foe, even if
         their particular beef with the US was diverse.

         Didn't I just flame you earlier tonight?  All of a sudden you're 
making
         a lot of sense.  I've been freaking out all day.  Who knows...

         I don't wanna get drafted.

-Tim


At 12:05 AM 9/12/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Remember, the Middle East is an extremely complex and volatile situation.
>Ben Laden has a beef with Israel.  He also has a beef with us as cultural
>imperialists.  Muslim nations constantly struggle with maintaining their
>religious traditions agains the incursions of US culture.  It's like a more
>extreme version of the French (that's the first joke I've been able to make
>today, so it might not be funny).
>
>The Palestinians also have a beef with Israel.  In fact, they have multiple
>beefs.
>
>There is, of course, the struggle over real estate that goes back centuries.
>That in itself is so complex that no one can definitively say who is right
>or who "deserves" the land.  It's similar to Yugoslavia in that regard.
>
>Then there is the religious conflict.  Most Palestinians are Muslims.
>However, many are not; many are Christian.  Some are Muslims, but not Muslim
>extremists.  So for some, this conflict is unimportant.  It is deeply
>intertwined with the real estate issue, so there are many variations
>possible there.
>
>Finally, there are a lot of Palestinians, probably all of them, who just
>want to be free.  They don't want to be forced from their homes in the
>middle of the night.  They don't want to be shot at.  They don't want to
>have their property seized.  They don't want to be interred and deported.
>They don't want to be tortured.  They don't even want to do all the crappy
>service jobs in Israel for almost no pay.  They just want to live normal
>lives and they resent the extremists on both sides.
>
>Then there is Israel.  Note that there is a difference between Jews, Judaism
>and Israel.  It is possible to support one and not the other.  I've read
>reports that the younger generations are less interested in the religion and
>more interested in the perpetuation of the state.  Religion is used as a
>background to create enthusiasm for state activities much like it is used by
>Islamic fundamentalists and often our own leaders.  Even Saddam Hussein was
>not particularly interested in religion until he needed to evoke the
>anti-West sympathies of the Islamic extreme during the Gulf War.
>Fortunately, it didn't work.
>
>Also, to complicate things further, there are Islamic fundamentalists that
>are our allies, such as Saudi Arabia.  They resent the cultural incursion of
>the US (at least on the surface; Allah seems to turn a blind eye when the
>leave the country), but they have other interests.
>
>The interesting thing is that all this confusion is precisely what keeps the
>powderkeg from exploding.  There has never been a reason for Arabs to
>galvanize against the US (or Christians and Jews, depending how the conflict
>is framed).  Keeping Egypt and Saudi and Syria on our side, as well as
>Israel, is the key to working toward peace and keeps the situation defused
>most of the time.  Frequently, someone gets impatient with the slow progress
>and does something to undermine the situation, inciting extreme views.
>
>An active dialog kept things relatively calm.  The current administration
>has completely ignored the Middle East and frustrations have been rising.
>It doesn't excuse the actions, but it can explain the timing and support
>(probably temporary) of some in the region.  Bombing and arrests may have
>some effect, but it's hard to know what they will be.  It could stop the
>whole business.  It could force them underground until we forget or lose
>interest, then it will happen again and we'll all be surprised and ask, "How
>could this happen?"  It could also galvanize the extremists on all sides and
>cause WWIII.  Pakistan, another Ben Laden supporter, does have nukes, though
>the delivery mechanism may not be very sophisticated.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin T. Focazio <mailto:wwwac@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:05 PM
> > To: eidoru design; wwwac@...
> > Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> >
> >
> > War, in the sense of military action, seems inevitable, no? But what
> > is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various states who
> > hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> >
> > When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with delight over this
> > atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing guns into the air in
> > "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens of thousands
> > of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them myself.
> >
> > I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for
> > vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that understands that
> > dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who disregard their
> > own lives to do it more.
> >
> > In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing missiles at
> > the usual suspects for a while.
> >
> > I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.






FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 02:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] we were warned

but we weren't warned, precisely because the journalists had heard 
this quite often before and decided not to take it seriously and not 
to report it.

dg


"Timothy Embler" <tembler@...>:

>This has been confirmed with FOXnews
>
>Tim
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: mike dizon [mailto:mdizon_2000@...
>
>
>According to CNN -- A brittish news organization had reported that Bin
>Laden had sent a telegram warning of the attack on the WTC.






FROM: Gerard McGovern
DATE: Wed 11:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] CTO and founder of Akamai on one of the plane

http://www.akamai.com/html/en/nr/press/press292.html

AKAMAI TECHNOLOGIES MOURNS THE LOSS OF CO-FOUNDER AND CTO DANIEL LEWIN 

Cambridge, MA, September 11, 2001 - With great sadness, Akamai 
Technologies, Inc. today announced the passing of Daniel C. Lewin, co-
founder, chief technology officer and board member of the Company. 
American Airlines confirmed that he was on board the Boston to Los 
Angeles flight that crashed in New York City today. Danny was 31 years 
old and is survived by his wife and two sons.

George H. Conrades, chairman and chief executive officer of Akamai 
said, "Danny was a wonderful human being. He will be deeply missed by his 
many friends at Akamai. Our thoughts and prayers are with Danny's family, 
friends and colleagues during this time of national tragedy and personal 
loss."

--end

Peace.

G in London






FROM: PXL : Innovator
DATE: Wed 12:58
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?



I don=B9t think a military counteraction would solve any problem ...

> Also, do you really think some bombing campaign, or even a land war, has =
any
> chance of deterring terrorism?

... and if some people might think this would be a possible solution ...

... I would strongly recommend them to think it over again.


> We're not talking about vietnam here, which essentially became a needless
> war. we're talking about terrorists who attacked and killed thousands of
> americans for no reason other than the fact that we're americans. we're
> talking about lunatics who need to be stopped. Bombs need to be dropped, =
and
> a clear message that this will not be tolorated needs to be sent. Its onl=
y
> needless when american's haven't been killed - the palestinian/israliei
> conflict is needless, and just plain stupid - retaliating for a full scal=
e,
> well planned attack on this country is not needless, its not stupid, and =
it
> needs to be done.


And what happens if the next hijacked civil airplane in the hands of some
suicide fanatics are planing an act of violence ...

... and what if the target will be neither the pentagon, nor the world trad=
e
center or any other highly populated city ...

... What happens if the next target of violence would be a nuclear power
station or even worse nuclear power stations (plural)?




graphically yours,


" design iS tHe oXyGen tHat surrounds me "

Marc Kle=EDn






FROM: Joanna Wissinger
DATE: Wed 07:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] could you stop the "war" posts please?

or at least take them to private mail. this is my life. this is not a 
video game.
-- 




Joanna Wissinger
c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq





FROM: lukebela dohnersilva
DATE: Wed 05:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] New York Times today?

Does anyone know if the NY Times will come out today.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 05:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] update on tel communications and internet access in NYC

--- carole guevin <carole@...> wrote:
> anybody have any idea of the status of telephone
> communications and internet
> access presently in Manhattan?  are things still as
> hectic as this early am
> + pm or have they improved?

My t1, provided by excite@... is down, as routers in
the WTC no longer exist. (I'm logged on via modem
right now, the horror!)

I presume I'm not the only excite@... customer in
this fix.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: xira
DATE: Wed 15:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] terrorism in America

First off, I'd like to extend my condolences to everyone in the NY / NJ
metro area. For every person who has donated blood, volunteered, and opened
their homes. Thank you.  If the world was filled with people like
yourselves, we wouldn't be having these issues with terrorism.

I live in Israel, and am amazed by the arguments and discussions that have
been covered on the list and in the media.  They are the exact same ones as
all of us here in Israel face everyday.

No democratic or civilized country just attacks innocent people. The basis
of terrorism is attacking innocent people, and hiding among other innocent
people to avoid being found.  Any country that has/had to deal with
terrorism (Ireland, Russia, Mexico, Argentina, Peru, etc.) knows this.
Because terrorism is not a "national" war, meaning one country against
another, there are no known way to distinguish who is a "good guy" and who
is a "bad guy". (Unless they are caught in the act.)  And as terrorism
increases, governments become more desperate to defend their citizens.  As a
result, many innocent people's lives are restricted, and sometimes lost in
actions against terrorism, for lack of a better solution.

Terrorism ruins everyone's freedom. It isn't about racism, religion,
governmental policies, or territory. Its about a minority of people with an
extreme agenda ruining the chances for innocent people to resolve their
conflicts peacefully.

How do YOU pick out a terrorist from an innocent person?

When we find an answer to this question, the governments of the world can
protect all the innocent, and deal with the sadistic madmen alone.

xira






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 08:27
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?



agreed, we're no angels but the UK, which at one time flew its flag over
1/4 of the world were no saints in their time either...



On 12 Sep 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

> "Pame McMahon" <pame.mcmahon@...> writes:
> 
> > >it is not even anger/vengeance i feel, but instead the fear that
> > >lives will be lost and/or compromised because of another needless war.
> > 
> > We're not talking about vietnam here, which essentially became a needless
> > war. we're talking about terrorists who attacked and killed thousands of
> > americans for no reason other than the fact that we're americans.
> 
> ...think hard about why being American has made you a target. What
> your governments and corporations have done that have led up to this.
> 
> -- 
> David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
> Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
>    Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
>        --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: David Choi
DATE: Wed 08:30
SUBJ: [wwwac] Why didn't anyone know?

the hijackers apparently turned off what they call the distress beacons
on the plane.  these are turned on surreptitiously by the pilot when
something like this occurs.  when that beacon is turned on, the air
traffic control center is being sent informtion about it's alititude,
speed, etc.  otherwise, with those beacons off, all the towers can
see/know is a dot on a screen moving in a different direction.  i'm not
so sure if they noticed early if the flight had changed course.  i don't
think there were any distress calls from the crew either.

then there are the black boxes that hold the recorded info... they
suspect that if the hijackers were smart enough to disable the distress
beacons, they could have potentially had knowledge of cutting power to
the recorders.

dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil-Nicola <mailto:parrot123@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 4:56 PM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: [wwwac] Why didn't anyone know?


Just a few questions:

At what time during the flight were the planes hijacked?

If the flight from Boston to NY is about 1.5hrs why wasn't there any
news of
hijacked planes?=20

Does the flight path to LA from Boston fly over NYC? if not how did
those
planes slip by? You would think they would have be under suspicion if
tracked.=20

If they did know of the hijackings why didn't we deploy fighter jets to
shoot them down or at least report the hijackings?






FROM: carole guevin
DATE: Wed 08:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] update on tel communications and internet access in NYC

the message on the telephone communication and internet accessibility was
sent late last night.  I'd like some feedback from Manhattan residents as to
what the status is.  I'm reposting 3 urls to leave/read messages concerning
our loved ones.

The OK list:

http://www.shunn.net/okay/

The Safe list:

http://safe.millennium.berkeley.edu/

The 911Tragedy list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/911Tragedy

carole






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 13:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

Ari <bongwater@...> writes:

> agreed, we're no angels but the UK, which at one time flew its flag over
> 1/4 of the world were no saints in their time either...

That was then, this is now. What's the US going to do about its image
problem in certain parts of the world?

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 08:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?



that's a good question.

however, whatever we've done in recent years doesn't justify what
happened.


On 12 Sep 2001, Dave Hodgkinson wrote:

> Ari <bongwater@...> writes:
> 
> > agreed, we're no angels but the UK, which at one time flew its flag over
> > 1/4 of the world were no saints in their time either...
> 
> That was then, this is now. What's the US going to do about its image
> problem in certain parts of the world?
> 
> -- 
> David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
> Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
>    Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
>        --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Jeremy Zevin
DATE: Wed 08:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/627390_asp.htm






FROM: David Choi
DATE: Wed 09:00
SUBJ: [wwwac] kabul on fire

yeah please... i know everyone is angry, confused, shocked, but please,
if you're ignorant, just shut the f**k up.

also, i heard some were beating cabbies.  i sincerely hope that isn't
true.

-----Original Message-----
From: Amita Guha <mailto:bfift2girl@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:31 PM
Cc: wwwac@...
Subject: RE: [wwwac] kabul on fire


> Consider:
> Do we really want general war with the muslim world?
> We could kiss nuclear-capable India and Pakistan good-bye in that
case.

India's not muslim...it's 85% Hindu or something like that.=20






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 09:07
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?


please stop playing your palestinian violin. it's getting tiresome and
some of the strings are broken.

if you knew your history and the actual situation over there you wouldn't
play it as loudly as you have.

i'm not saying that as a people, they haven't suffered injustices but it's
a very complicated situation over there. it's also interesting how you
forgot to mention the 1970 Jordanian civil war. jordan, which is an arab/muslim
nation fought an incredibly bloody and brutal war against the PLO. many
palestinians died at their hands. then, after the gulf war, quite a few
were punished by a vengeful kuwait.

so, it's not just israelis who have killed palestinians.


also, it's interesting to point out that *most* muslim nations are ruled
by despots. if they weren't, we wouldn't have such large communities of
arab/muslim immigrants to the US in recent years. most are not palestinian
- many are syrian, egyptian, pakistani, etc.

the leaders of these countries need a common set of enemies to "fuel"
their stays in power. doing so helps the average citizen of those
nations, who has no beef with us, to forget about their poverty and
problems.




On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Shirley, Scott wrote:

> Remember, the Middle East is an extremely complex and volatile situation.
> Ben Laden has a beef with Israel.  He also has a beef with us as cultural
> imperialists.  Muslim nations constantly struggle with maintaining their
> religious traditions agains the incursions of US culture.  It's like a more
> extreme version of the French (that's the first joke I've been able to make
> today, so it might not be funny).
> 
> The Palestinians also have a beef with Israel.  In fact, they have multiple
> beefs.
> 
> There is, of course, the struggle over real estate that goes back centuries.
> That in itself is so complex that no one can definitively say who is right
> or who "deserves" the land.  It's similar to Yugoslavia in that regard.
> 
> Then there is the religious conflict.  Most Palestinians are Muslims.
> However, many are not; many are Christian.  Some are Muslims, but not Muslim
> extremists.  So for some, this conflict is unimportant.  It is deeply
> intertwined with the real estate issue, so there are many variations
> possible there.
> 
> Finally, there are a lot of Palestinians, probably all of them, who just
> want to be free.  They don't want to be forced from their homes in the
> middle of the night.  They don't want to be shot at.  They don't want to
> have their property seized.  They don't want to be interred and deported.
> They don't want to be tortured.  They don't even want to do all the crappy
> service jobs in Israel for almost no pay.  They just want to live normal
> lives and they resent the extremists on both sides.
> 
> Then there is Israel.  Note that there is a difference between Jews, Judaism
> and Israel.  It is possible to support one and not the other.  I've read
> reports that the younger generations are less interested in the religion and
> more interested in the perpetuation of the state.  Religion is used as a
> background to create enthusiasm for state activities much like it is used by
> Islamic fundamentalists and often our own leaders.  Even Saddam Hussein was
> not particularly interested in religion until he needed to evoke the
> anti-West sympathies of the Islamic extreme during the Gulf War.
> Fortunately, it didn't work.
> 
> Also, to complicate things further, there are Islamic fundamentalists that
> are our allies, such as Saudi Arabia.  They resent the cultural incursion of
> the US (at least on the surface; Allah seems to turn a blind eye when the
> leave the country), but they have other interests.
> 
> The interesting thing is that all this confusion is precisely what keeps the
> powderkeg from exploding.  There has never been a reason for Arabs to
> galvanize against the US (or Christians and Jews, depending how the conflict
> is framed).  Keeping Egypt and Saudi and Syria on our side, as well as
> Israel, is the key to working toward peace and keeps the situation defused
> most of the time.  Frequently, someone gets impatient with the slow progress
> and does something to undermine the situation, inciting extreme views.
> 
> An active dialog kept things relatively calm.  The current administration
> has completely ignored the Middle East and frustrations have been rising.
> It doesn't excuse the actions, but it can explain the timing and support
> (probably temporary) of some in the region.  Bombing and arrests may have
> some effect, but it's hard to know what they will be.  It could stop the
> whole business.  It could force them underground until we forget or lose
> interest, then it will happen again and we'll all be surprised and ask, "How
> could this happen?"  It could also galvanize the extremists on all sides and
> cause WWIII.  Pakistan, another Ben Laden supporter, does have nukes, though
> the delivery mechanism may not be very sophisticated.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin T. Focazio <mailto:wwwac@...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:05 PM
> > To: eidoru design; wwwac@...
> > Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> > 
> > 
> > War, in the sense of military action, seems inevitable, no? But what 
> > is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various states who 
> > hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> > 
> > When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with delight over this 
> > atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing guns into the air in 
> > "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens of thousands 
> > of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them myself.
> > 
> > I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for 
> > vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that understands that 
> > dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who disregard their 
> > own lives to do it more.
> > 
> > In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing missiles at 
> > the usual suspects for a while.
> > 
> > I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.






FROM: Elliotte Rusty Harold
DATE: Wed 09:00
SUBJ: [wwwac] Why didn't anyone know?

At 5:49 PM -0400 9/11/01, l a u r a *^* l y n c h wrote:

>FWIW, I've been switching back and forth between BBC and the local 
>news, and the BBC is giving the least panicky and most efficient 
>reports of what's going on (f'rinstance, they had already talked to 
>the leaders of the PLFD [or whatever the acronym is] and found that 
>the group didn't claim responsibility while everyone else was just 
>starting to report the claim). However, the local stations have, of 
>course, a much more personal angle going, with lots of local 
>interviews and reporters that were in the area and such.
>

Last night I finally found some intelligent, rational thoughts on 
BET. While CNN, CBS, and the local stations were interviewing the 
same white war mongerers who kept insisting that we needed to start 
bombing people before we even knew who was responsible, that we 
needed to repeal the restriction against assassination (James Baker), 
and that we were going to have to give up our civil liberties, BET 
was interviewing Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Sr., and others who had a 
much more reasonable approach. It was the only place in the mass 
media where I saw any recognition that there were likely reasons this 
attack occurred, and that we needed to address the root causes as 
much as the symptoms.

The white mass media likes to portray people like Sharpton and 
Jackson as fringe nutcases. What was apparent last night was that the 
fringe is a lot more  reasoned, informed, and honest than the 
mainstream. If either of them runs for anything again, I'm voting for 
them. We need more people like this.
-- 
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@... | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|         XML in a Nutshell (O'Reilly & Associates, 2001)            |
|              http://www.ibiblio.org/xml/books/xian/                |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596000588/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+






FROM: Paula Freedman
DATE: Wed 06:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Please send socks

Not a joke -- just heard on the news that emergency
workers who are set up at Chelsea Piers need dry socks
and sweat pants. They've been working all night and
morning in wet shoes and socks getting nasty blisters.
News is saying to bring dry socks and sweats to
Chelsea Piers.




=====
_________________________________________________________

Paula J. Freedman - pjfreedman@...
_________________________________________________________

__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Wed 06:23
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?


NO

=====
Scott Wickham

74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt 
Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com    
for Sale by owner

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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FROM: McKeever, Marty
DATE: Wed 09:25
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

-----Original Message-----
>From: Elliotte Rusty Harold <mailto:elharo@...>
>BET 
>was interviewing Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Sr., and others who had a 
>much more reasonable approach. 

Since when are Al & Jesse "reasonable"?

>It was the only place in the mass 
>media where I saw any recognition that there were likely reasons this 
>attack occurred, and that we needed to address the root causes as 
>much as the symptoms.

Sure, but when the root cause is that the religion says "all suicide bombers
go to heaven" -- how exactly shall we address that?

>The white mass media likes to portray people like Sharpton and 
>Jackson as fringe nutcases. 

If it quacks like a duck...

>What was apparent last night was that the 
>fringe is a lot more  reasoned, informed, and honest than the 
>mainstream. If either of them runs for anything again, I'm voting for 
>them. We need more people like this.

Yep, more race baiters -- that'll help ALOT!

Sorry, but you seem to have lost your friggin marbles..






FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Wed 06:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?


--- Jeremy Zevin <jzevin@...> wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/627390_asp.htm
> 
I was waiting for this to be blamed on open source and
the "unamerican GPL"




=====
Scott Wickham

74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt 
Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com    
for Sale by owner

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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FROM: Gerard McGovern
DATE: Wed 14:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/627390_asp.htm

'Is the peace and stability of the world worth more than an individual's 
right to privacy?'

My opinion is yes.

Anyway, what caused this attack was the lack of security on American 
domestic flights. You are only as strong as your weakest link.

G






FROM: Elliotte Rusty Harold
DATE: Wed 09:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] kabul on fire

At 6:49 PM -0400 9/11/01, Ari wrote:
>that's unfair. we're getting a taste in macro scale of what the israeli's
>have been dealing with for 50+ years.
>

Don't forget we're also getting a taste of what the Palestinians 
experience, although admittedly what they undergo on a long term is 
far worse than what happened to us yesterday or what happens to 
Israel on an ongoing basis.
-- 
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@... | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|         XML in a Nutshell (O'Reilly & Associates, 2001)            |
|              http://www.ibiblio.org/xml/books/xian/                |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596000588/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+






FROM: Jeremy Zevin
DATE: Wed 09:35
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?

I was merely playing devil's advocate. I don't necessarily want to give up
any of my freedoms either but, change is needed.



> From: Scott Wickham <nylscottw@...>
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:26:25 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Jeremy Zevin <jzevin@...>, wwwac@...
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?
> 
> 
> --- Jeremy Zevin <jzevin@...> wrote:
>> http://www.msnbc.com/news/627390_asp.htm
>> 
> I was waiting for this to be blamed on open source and
> the "unamerican GPL"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> Scott Wickham
> 
> 74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt
> Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com
> for Sale by owner
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Roy Pardi
DATE: Wed 09:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] terrorism in America

At 3:40 PM +0200 9/12/01, xira wrote:
>First off, I'd like to extend my condolences to everyone in the NY / NJ
>metro area. For every person who has donated blood, volunteered, and opened
>their homes. Thank you.  If the world was filled with people like
>yourselves, we wouldn't be having these issues with terrorism.
>
>I live in Israel, and am amazed by the arguments and discussions that have
>been covered on the list and in the media.  They are the exact same ones as
>all of us here in Israel face everyday.


I hear planes overhead as I write this and I know without looking, 
from their sound and yesterday's events, that they are war planes.

Sitting in a park yesterday to escape the drone of tv news, one of 
the thoughts in the stream was that I felt like an Israeli. Another 
that I felt like an American. Another that I felt like a citizen. 
Just rambling here...

-- 

----------------------------------------
     Roy Pardi                rpardi@...
----------------------------------------






FROM: Paul H. Smith
DATE: Wed 09:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Help build attack link directory

Please help me build this directory of links related to yesterday's attacks and their aftermath.  In particular, if you know of any sites devoted to understanding hate, fear and motivations behind terrorism in general, please suggest them.

http://www.linkbank.com/get_links/attack

Thanks.

Paul Smith


-- 
________________________________________________________
S m i t h   R e n a u d ,  I n c.     http://www.sri.net

875 Avenue of the Americas, Ste 2510, New York NY  10001
phone: (212) 239-8985 x201           fax: (212) 239-1128






FROM: Williams, John
DATE: Wed 09:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

I'm sorry....Al and Jesse are freakin' idiots with an agenda.  They're
the worst mouthpieces to make any comments right now.  Al and Jesse are
Clinton and Don King rolled together.

side note...Ben Ladin sent a message out to his 'people' congratulating
on a job well done, whoever it was that was responsible.  This message
was intercepted by our military.  Our military intelligence knows a lot
more than the public knows right now.  Whoever is responsible will be
eliminated, period.

side note 2...Japan's Prime Minister quoted, " ...we made this same
mistake in 1941 when we awoke a sleeping giant..."

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	McKeever, Marty <SMTP:marty.mckeever@...>
> Sent:	Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:26 AM
> To:	elharo@... wwwac@...
> Subject:	RE: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Elliotte Rusty Harold <mailto:elharo@...>
> >BET=20
> >was interviewing Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Sr., and others who had a
>=20
> >much more reasonable approach.=20
>=20
> Since when are Al & Jesse "reasonable"?
>=20
> >It was the only place in the mass=20
> >media where I saw any recognition that there were likely reasons this
>=20
> >attack occurred, and that we needed to address the root causes as=20
> >much as the symptoms.
>=20
> Sure, but when the root cause is that the religion says "all suicide
> bombers
> go to heaven" -- how exactly shall we address that?
>=20
> >The white mass media likes to portray people like Sharpton and=20
> >Jackson as fringe nutcases.=20
>=20
> If it quacks like a duck...
>=20
> >What was apparent last night was that the=20
> >fringe is a lot more  reasoned, informed, and honest than the=20
> >mainstream. If either of them runs for anything again, I'm voting for
>=20
> >them. We need more people like this.
>=20
> Yep, more race baiters -- that'll help ALOT!
>=20
> Sorry, but you seem to have lost your friggin marbles..
>=20






FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Wed 06:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] Help build attack link directory

what happened to the time when things were just wrong
?

and we didn't have to get into understand why they
were comitting their particular form of evil.

http://www.nambla.de/ for example

Do we need to understand the motivation of the cops
beat rodney king, or Adner Louima.

I think not.

Please stop this appologist crap and stand up for what
is right. 



--- "Paul H. Smith" <phs@...> wrote:
> Please help me build this directory of links related
> to yesterday's attacks and their aftermath.  In
> particular, if you know of any sites devoted to
> understanding hate, fear and motivations behind
> terrorism in general, please suggest them.
> 
> http://www.linkbank.com/get_links/attack
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Paul Smith
> 
>  

=====
Scott Wickham

74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt 
Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com    
for Sale by owner

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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FROM: Paul H. Smith
DATE: Wed 09:57
SUBJ: [wwwac] Help build attack link directory

At 6:46 AM -0700 9/12/01, Scott Wickham wrote:
>what happened to the time when things were just wrong
>?

You mean 40,000 years ago in the Neanderthal days?  Or when?

>Do we need to understand the motivation of the cops
>beat rodney king, or Adner Louima.
>
>I think not.

You're right.  Understanding is NOT necessary.  Your choice.

>
>Please stop this appologist crap and stand up for what
>is right.
>

Scott ... calm down!

Do YOU have to start jumping to conclusions like everyone else?  I'm no apologist.  I just can't find any links for that area of the attack directory.  Most of the sites I can find are just rehashing of all the media-generated content.

Now, please get off my case.

>
>--- "Paul H. Smith" <phs@...> wrote:
>> Please help me build this directory of links related
>> to yesterday's attacks and their aftermath.  In
>> particular, if you know of any sites devoted to
>> understanding hate, fear and motivations behind
>> terrorism in general, please suggest them.
>>
>> http://www.linkbank.com/get_links/attack
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Paul Smith
>>
>> 
>
>=====
>Scott Wickham
>
>74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt
>Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com   
>for Sale by owner
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://im.yahoo.com


-- 
________________________________________________________
S m i t h   R e n a u d ,  I n c.     http://www.sri.net

875 Avenue of the Americas, Ste 2510, New York NY  10001
phone: (212) 239-8985 x201           fax: (212) 239-1128






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 10:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] <ruben@... [fairuse] Fair Use Meeting NOT CANCLED>


On 2001.09.12 10:02:32 -0400 Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:

New Yorkers for Fair Use is NOT cancelling our weekly meeting.

The meeting is moved to Junior's Cheese Cake Resturant on Flatbush Ave and
Dekalb Avenue in Brooklyn until next week.  

The time is 7PM

Transportation: Take the Q train on the Brighton Subway (Q Train)
and the resturant is on that corner.  Otherwise, take ANY train to Boro
Hall and walk East on Fulton Mall a few blocks to Flatbush Ave.

The Adgenda will include the results of our canvassing campain on Thursday
and our plans for this Sunday.  We will start our letter righting campain,
draft our Press Release, and last... we will live FREE tomorrow.  So plan
to be there.


Ruben


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752
____________________________
New Yorkers for Fair Use -
because it's either fair use or useless....

-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Steve Sloan
DATE: Wed 10:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

If Nostradamus could have really seen into the future, he'd have shit in his
pants.

Longbow(R)                            http://longbow.com
Java | SQL  | ASP | COM | C/C++ | VB | Delphi |  Perl
/********************************************************/
             Engineering The Information Economy (TM)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sichon Domrongchai <mailto:sichon@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:59 PM
> To: wwwac
> Subject: [wwwac] Nostradamus
>
>
> Not to be melodramatic, but someone sent me this, and it's
> quite disturbing
> in context...
>
> "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, two
> brothers torn apart
> by chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will
> succumb.", "The
> third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
>
> - Nostradamus, 1654
>
>
>
> S I C H O N | D E S I G N
> --------------------------------------->
> digital media designer
> W: 561.218.0063 | M: 561.715.1039
> sichon@...
> <---------------------------------------






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 14:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

In article <m3u1y8r3sn.fsf@...>,
	daveh@... (Dave Hodgkinson) writes:

> That was then, this is now. What's the US going to do about its image
> problem in certain parts of the world?

I certainly disagree with the "blame the victim" attitude that
too many are expounding.  That's no better than accusing a rape
victim of "asking for it".

But Dave does ask an interesting question, if only because there's
really no possible solution.  As with any other religion, hatred
of the U.S. serves the interest of some leaders.  Since these are
leaders that have near, if not complete, "media" control in their
communities, those communities will be told what serves the leaders.

The U.S. could airdrop thousand dollar bills over the entire
middle east, and the locals would be told of our evil plot to
wipe out local currencies (or some such).

Consider even our own little community (the WWWAC list).  There
are people here, with the best of intentions and beliefs, that
equate "free trade" with a form of "cultural imperialism".

What is "free trade" but an increasing of choice (through elimination
of trade boundries like quotas and tariffs)?  Yes, there are problems
with completely free trade, such as inequality of living conditions, 
unequal environmental regulation, and so on.

But the basic idea is an increasing of choice.  Those that view this
as a form of "cultural imperialism" do so because people of culture
X are now free to choose products (ie. entertainment, information, 
clothing) from culture Y.  In the belief of these people, members
of culture X should be permitted only culture X products.

This desired restriction on the freedom of people in culture X may
be done with the best of intentions (preserving culture X as a
distinct culture).  But it *is* a restriction of freedom, an 
elimination of choice by culture X members.  So those claiming to 
be against "cultural imperialism" are against freedom.

There's another way to come to this same conclusion.  Let's assume
for the moment that the Free World is trying to export its culture.
What culture is that, precisely?  Well, for all the Dallas and
I Dream of Jeannie reruns, an important part of the culture is
freedom.  

Those against "cultural imperialism" are against our export of
freedom (as well as Dallas reruns, which I can almost understand {8^).

I believe that these people should reflect not upon X as a culture,
but X as a group of individuals.  Why should these individuals be
forced to carry the burden of preserving culture X?  Certainly, if
they *want* to do so they should.  But to have people in culture Z
claim that people of culture X must be forced to stay in culture X is
terribly unfair.

If culture X is so important to those culture Z members, then why
not carry on the Good Work themselves?  Leave culture Z, and join
culture X.  Be a part of preserving culture X.   Don't buy products
of culture Y.

But I don't believe it right for those Z members to force this upon
members of X against their will.

	- Andrew






FROM: Eileen 'Turtle' Parzek
DATE: Wed 10:06
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus


 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Sichon Domrongchai <mailto:sichon@...>
 > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:59 PM
 > To: wwwac
 > Subject: [wwwac] Nostradamus
 >
 >
 > Not to be melodramatic, but someone sent me this, and it's
 > quite disturbing
 > in context...
 >
 > "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, two
 > brothers torn apart
 > by chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will
 > succumb.", "The
 > third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
 >
 > - Nostradamus, 1654

I guess what makes me crazy about this Nostradamus stuff is that different 
bits of his writings circulated when we went after Sadaam... when we went 
after Khadafy... And we're still here. I think just about anything can be 
interpreted to mean just about anything, and its really all quite 
pointless.  I just got sent this by someone who even changed it to read 
"Nostradamus, September 11, 1654".

yeah, okay...

But - now I"m curious to go hunt around the internet and see if this is 
REALLY a nostradamus quote or if its just a convenient bit of legend that 
is making the rounds... too bad I have better things to do at the moment :-P

turtle

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~
Eileen "Turtle" Parzek ~  phone~ 518-505-6617
http://www.turtlesweb.com  mailto:turtle@...
digital artist ~ information architect ~ project mgr ~ consultant






FROM: Williams, John
DATE: Wed 10:10
SUBJ: [wwwac] the plane in PA...

This plane was aimed at the Capitol building and the White House, but
both buildings had been evacuated.  The plane took a sharp turn away
from these buildings and went to the Pentagon minutes before impact.

John

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kim B. Foglia <SMTP:wwwac@...>
> Sent:	Tuesday, September 11, 2001 5:56 PM
> To:	wwwac@...
> Subject:	[wwwac] the plane in PA...
>=20
> My conjecture is that the plane that crashed in PA was supposed to=20
> hit the Pentagon...two planes for each attack.
>=20
>=20
> Kim B. Foglia
> Chief Creative Officer
> Galt Corporation
> http://www.galtcorporation.com
> 631.756.0200 x204 voice
> 631.756.0789 fax
>=20






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 14:25
SUBJ: [wwwac] update on tel communications and internet access in NYC

In article <20010912122417.15139.qmail@...>,
	tiedrich@... writes:

> My t1, provided by excite@... is down, as routers in
> the WTC no longer exist. (I'm logged on via modem
> right now, the horror!)

We've connections to three backbones, and get reports from a forth
due to an indirect relationship.  Two (Qwest and Genuity) are reporting
problems based upon equipment loss (apparently there was a signficant
telecom presence for Verizon in WTC#7).  There is also equipment that's
still there in NYC, but to which nobody can get access.

The recent reports from these two backbones indicate that they've routed
around the losses, but that unusual latencies or losses might be seen.

I expect that many of the backbones are hit by this one way or another, 
at least in the North East.  

You can get a general picture of latency at:

	http://www.mids.org/weather/us/index.html

	- Andrew






FROM: Joe Krafinski
DATE: Wed 10:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] 10:45

The President will be on at 10:45.


Joe Krafinski
Senior Account Manager
Technology and Executive Placement
Datacom Technology Group
350 Fifth Avenue, 38th floor, NYC, NY  10118
http://www.dtg-usa.com
v  212-629-5720, ext. 222
f  212-629-3374






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 10:34
SUBJ: [wwwac] finding the bast*rds

Quick identification of of some of those who *may* be responsible for these 
horrific acts

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/local_regional/ausattk09122001.htm

from the Boston Herald ....

david

**********************************************
      Internet Marketing Strategies & Web Sites by david
       Accessing the World from the Gulf Coast of Florida
                   http://www.IslandTime.com/david/
AOL users Click Here
***********************************************






FROM: Martin T. Focazio
DATE: Wed 10:30
SUBJ: [wwwac] Help build attack link directory

Jesus, Scott, I must have been living in a cave. That NAMBLA link was 
VERY disturbing...I'd never heard of them before.



At 6:46 AM -0700 09-12-2001, Scott Wickham wrote:
>what happened to the time when things were just wrong
>?
>
>and we didn't have to get into understand why they
>were comitting their particular form of evil.
>
>http://www.nambla.de/ for example
>
>Do we need to understand the motivation of the cops
>beat rodney king, or Adner Louima.
>
>I think not.
>
>Please stop this appologist crap and stand up for what
>is right.
>
>
>
>--- "Paul H. Smith" <phs@...> wrote:
>>  Please help me build this directory of links related
>>  to yesterday's attacks and their aftermath.  In
>>  particular, if you know of any sites devoted to
>>  understanding hate, fear and motivations behind
>>  terrorism in general, please suggest them.
>>
>>  http://www.linkbank.com/get_links/attack
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>
>>  Paul Smith
>>
>> 
>
>=====
>Scott Wickham
>
>74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt
>Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com   
>for Sale by owner
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 10:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:06:15 -0400
"Eileen 'Turtle' Parzek" <turtle@...> wrote:
> 
>  > From: Sichon Domrongchai <mailto:sichon@...>
>  >
>  > Not to be melodramatic, but someone sent me this, and it's
>  > quite disturbing in context...
>  >
>  > "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, two brothers 
> > torn apart by chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader 
> > will succumb.", "The third big war will begin when the big city is 
> > burning."      - Nostradamus, 1654
> ...
> But - now I"m curious to go hunt around the internet and see if this is 
> REALLY a nostradamus quote or if its just a convenient bit of legend that 
> is making the rounds... too bad I have better things to do at the moment :-P
> 
Well, it seems it's a hoax:

   http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/cityofgod.html

Seems an authoritative source, but then such can be hard to determine
with only a cursory glance.

Scott






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 14:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] update on tel communications and internet access in NYC

In article <GAELJDDKGNNBLCOAJKFGAEBCDJAA.carole@...>,
	carole@... ("carole guevin") writes:
> anybody have any idea of the status of telephone communications and internet
> access presently in Manhattan?  are things still as hectic as this early am
> + pm or have they improved?

	http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB1000258811417160965.htm
	http://nytimes.com/2001/09/12/national/12PHON.html

	- Andrew






FROM: Elliotte Rusty Harold
DATE: Wed 10:36
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

At 9:25 AM -0400 9/12/01, McKeever, Marty wrote:

>>It was the only place in the mass
>>media where I saw any recognition that there were likely reasons this
>>attack occurred, and that we needed to address the root causes as
>>much as the symptoms.
>
>Sure, but when the root cause is that the religion says "all suicide bombers
>go to heaven" -- how exactly shall we address that?
>

That's not the root cause. It never has been. Portraying it as the 
problem distracts attention from the real issues. As long as everyone 
swallows the media's bigoted, racist line that the problem is Islam, 
nobody will bother looking for the real problem. It's not that hard 
to find if you open your eyes and think critically.

Terrorism is the last resort of oppressed groups who have no other 
options. It is not something an opposition turns to until all other 
channels have been closed off to them. And terrorism is not easy 
either. It is not something that is undertaken lightly or for kicks 
or by cowards. It is an action taken by committed people who feel 
they have no other choice and believe they're doing what is necessary 
to free their people from significant oppression. Sometimes the 
terrorists are blithering idiots and the oppression doesn't exist 
(Tim Mcveigh) but more often a people is in fact being oppressed by a 
hostile outside power. This is nothing new either. Whether you're 
talking about Osama bin Laden today or the Jewish zealots 2000 years 
ago, the pattern's the same. As long as the U.S. persists in 
thwarting the legitimate desire of people for self-rule, it will be a 
target for terrorism.
-- 
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@... | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|         XML in a Nutshell (O'Reilly & Associates, 2001)            |
|              http://www.ibiblio.org/xml/books/xian/                |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0596000588/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+






FROM: Eric Scuccimarra
DATE: Wed 10:44
SUBJ: [wwwac] Test - please disregard

See subject line.

Sorry about the test but my email server was on a circuit in 7 World Trade 
and I am just trying to see if it's back up.






FROM: Martin T. Focazio
DATE: Wed 10:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Funding

Bush calls it "an act of war"
Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"

Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a declaration of war.

  (but against whom?)

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin T. Focazio
Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
Martin T. Focazio LLC.
Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
610.847.1118 voice
mtfocazio AOL IM
focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: Williams, John
DATE: Wed 10:51
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Funding

A formal declaration of war will be approved by Congress and issued by
the president as soon as the U.S. knows exactly who is responsible.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Martin T. Focazio <SMTP:wwwac@...>
> Sent:	Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:54 AM
> To:	wwwac@...
> Subject:	[wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount"
> of Funding
>=20
> Bush calls it "an act of war"
> Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
> Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"
>=20
> Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a declaration of
> war.
>=20
>   (but against whom?)
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Martin T. Focazio
> Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
> Martin T. Focazio LLC.
> Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
> 610.847.1118 voice
> mtfocazio AOL IM
> focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: Janet Driscoll
DATE: Wed 09:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] From a Canadian Newspaper

A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES  We should appreciate this one. This
is from a Canadian newspaper, it's worth sharing.

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

America: The Good Neighbor.  Widespread but only partial news coverage was
given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.  What follows is the full text
of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.  When France
was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it
up,
and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I
was there.  I saw it.  When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United
States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.  The Marshall Plan and the Truman
Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers
in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them?
Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?  Why
does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.  You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times and
safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.  Even their
draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets,
and
most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.  When the railways of France,
Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went
broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.  Both are still broke.  I can
name
you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in
trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the
San Francisco earthquake.  Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will
come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are
entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their
present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We seem to be blamed for everything,
and don't get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope that each
of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that
they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent
to
every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read
this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Makes you proud to live here doesn't it??






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 11:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?


<<Terrorism is the last resort of oppressed groups who have no other 
options.>>

That's BULL SHIT.  Did you see Jewish Radical pull down the Empire State
Building during the Holocaust.






-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Frank D. Greco
DATE: Wed 11:12
SUBJ: [wwwac] the plane in PA...

At 10:10 AM 9/12/2001 -0400, Williams, John wrote:
 >This plane was aimed at the Capitol building and the White House, but
 >both buildings had been evacuated.  The plane took a sharp turn away
 >from these buildings and went to the Pentagon minutes before impact.

	How in god's name did that plane get even close to
	Pentagon airspace?

	frank g






FROM: Jason McCabe Calacanis
DATE: Wed 11:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] office space for companies which have been displaced.

If anyone has been displaced and needs a place to work we have plenty of
desk space, for up to 40 people. We also have desks, chairs and an 802.11
wireless network (T1).

best jason






FROM: Matt
DATE: Wed 11:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Funding

Can you even declare war officially against an individual or organization?
Given Osama Bin Laden's (assuming he's guilty) high mobility, it may be more
complicated than declaring war on one nation, since he could be in twelve
different countries in as many days. It may be more like a cat-and-mouse chase
with heavy weaponry.

"Martin T. Focazio" wrote:

> Bush calls it "an act of war"
> Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
> Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"
>
> Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a declaration of war.
>
>   (but against whom?)
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Martin T. Focazio
> Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
> Martin T. Focazio LLC.
> Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
> 610.847.1118 voice
> mtfocazio AOL IM
> focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: Daniel G. Magni
DATE: Wed 11:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] From a Canadian Newspaper

An oldie but goodie.
The answer is yes.

Daniel G. Magni
President/CEO
BeaconVision Incorporated
337 Amherst Street, Suite 5
Nashua, New Hampshire 03063-1723
Office   (603) 595.2200
FAX      (603) 595.2348  Virtual FAX (240) 384.8646
Cellular (603) 620.1800
mailto:dan.magni@...
http://www.beaconvision.com/
Live free or die!



 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Janet Driscoll <mailto:janet.driscoll@...>
Sent:	Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:02 AM
To:	wwwac@...
Subject:	[wwwac] From a Canadian Newspaper

A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES  We should appreciate this one. This
is from a Canadian newspaper, it's worth sharing.

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

America: The Good Neighbor.  Widespread but only partial news coverage was
given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.  What follows is the full text
of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.  When France
was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it
up,
and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I
was there.  I saw it.  When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United
States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.  The Marshall Plan and the Truman
Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers
in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them?
Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?  Why
does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.  You talk about American
technocracy, and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times and
safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.  Even their
draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets,
and
most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.  When the railways of France,
Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went
broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.  Both are still broke.  I can
name
you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in
trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the
Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the
San Francisco earthquake.  Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will
come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are
entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their
present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
rest of the world would realize it. We seem to be blamed for everything,
and don't get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope that each
of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that
they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent
to
every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read
this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.

Makes you proud to live here doesn't it??






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 11:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] From a Canadian Newspaper

I like Gordon Sinclair, and its nice to see that we have friends.  That
said, even the President of France is behind us on this one.

Best,

Mark


On 12-09-2001 11:26, "Daniel G. Magni" <dan.magni@...> wrote:

> An oldie but goodie.
> The answer is yes.
> 
> Daniel G. Magni
> President/CEO
> BeaconVision Incorporated
> 337 Amherst Street, Suite 5
> Nashua, New Hampshire 03063-1723
> Office   (603) 595.2200
> FAX      (603) 595.2348  Virtual FAX (240) 384.8646
> Cellular (603) 620.1800
> mailto:dan.magni@...
> http://www.beaconvision.com/
> Live free or die!
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:     Janet Driscoll <mailto:janet.driscoll@...>
> Sent:    Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:02 AM
> To:    wwwac@...
> Subject:    [wwwac] From a Canadian Newspaper
> 
> A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES  We should appreciate this one. This
> is from a Canadian newspaper, it's worth sharing.
> 
> TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> 
> America: The Good Neighbor.  Widespread but only partial news coverage was
> given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
> Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator.  What follows is the full text
> of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
> 
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
> generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
> of
> the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
> even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.  When France
> was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it
> up,
> and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I
> was there.  I saw it.  When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> United
> States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were
> flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.  The Marshall Plan and the Truman
> Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
> newspapers
> in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
> erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
> Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them?
> Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?  Why
> does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
> moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
> about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.  You talk about American
> technocracy, and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times and
> safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
> right in the store window for everybody to look at.  Even their
> draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets,
> and
> most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
> dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.  When the railways of France,
> Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
> rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went
> broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.  Both are still broke.  I can
> name
> you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in
> trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the
> Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the
> San Francisco earthquake.  Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will
> come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are
> entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their
> present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
> Stand proud, America
> 
> This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the
> United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the
> rest of the world would realize it. We seem to be blamed for everything,
> and don't get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope that each
> of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that
> they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent
> to
> every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read
> this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
> 
> Makes you proud to live here doesn't it??






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 11:23
SUBJ: [wwwac] the plane in PA...

Well, for starters, Clinton took the Anti-Aircraft missiles down that used
to be there.

Mark

On 12-09-2001 11:12, "Frank D. Greco" <fgreco@...> wrote:

> At 10:10 AM 9/12/2001 -0400, Williams, John wrote:
>> This plane was aimed at the Capitol building and the White House, but
>> both buildings had been evacuated.  The plane took a sharp turn away
>> from these buildings and went to the Pentagon minutes before impact.
> 
> How in god's name did that plane get even close to
> Pentagon airspace?
> 
> frank g






FROM: Williams, John
DATE: Wed 11:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] the plane in PA...

All planes can get close to the air space in DC.  DC is only 11 square
miles and is shaped like a "diamond".  the Potomac river separates DC
from Virginia on the left side of the diamond while Maryland is the
border on the right side of the diamond.  The Pentagon is right on the
Virginia side of the river while National Airport is right inside the
diamond near the bottom and Dulles International is about 11 - 15 miles
from the heart of DC just north of the city.   There are planes flying
around the city all of the time.  I used to live in Alexandria which is
just south of DC on the Virginia side and would walk down to the river
and watch the planes use the Potomac as their guide to land.  It's not
that hard to get a suicide-missioner plane to crash anywhere it wants,
especially in DC.

John
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Frank D. Greco <SMTP:fgreco@...>
> Sent:	Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:12 AM
> To:	wwwac@...
> Subject:	RE: [wwwac] the plane in PA...
>=20
> At 10:10 AM 9/12/2001 -0400, Williams, John wrote:
>  >This plane was aimed at the Capitol building and the White House,
> but
>  >both buildings had been evacuated.  The plane took a sharp turn away
>  >from these buildings and went to the Pentagon minutes before impact.
>=20
> 	How in god's name did that plane get even close to
> 	Pentagon airspace?
>=20
> 	frank g






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 10:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] Paterson

I'm going to check this out when I get home (Clifton) but I heard on the
radio that there are Palestinians celebrating on Crooks Ave -- makes me
sick.






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 10:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Funding


Which is why bush said 'the countries that harbor' them would be part of
the retaliation. I think he wants the government to give them up - given
the US's help with Arafat and Afghanistan against the USSR in the past,
you'd think we'd have a little more help...

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Matt wrote:

> Can you even declare war officially against an individual or organization?
> Given Osama Bin Laden's (assuming he's guilty) high mobility, it may be more
> complicated than declaring war on one nation, since he could be in twelve
> different countries in as many days. It may be more like a cat-and-mouse chase
> with heavy weaponry.
> 
> "Martin T. Focazio" wrote:
> 
> > Bush calls it "an act of war"
> > Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
> > Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"
> >
> > Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a declaration of war.
> >
> >   (but against whom?)
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Martin T. Focazio
> > Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
> > Martin T. Focazio LLC.
> > Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
> > 610.847.1118 voice
> > mtfocazio AOL IM
> > focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: Patrick Corcoran
DATE: Wed 08:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] 1-click

Visit: http://www.amazon.com/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX

Patrick Corcoran






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 11:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

you don't look around and say "oh, well, so what if those roaches just tore 
open my loaf of Wonder Bread" you spray them with Raid. You kill them. You 
make them suffer. 

and right now, i love roaches compared to these cowardly suicidal bastards.

-erin
http://www.gigglechick.com/erin/blog/
the perfect combo of estrogen and a sense of humor


In a message dated 09/12/2001 6:58:55 AM, innovator@... 
writes:
<< I don1t think a military counteraction would solve any problem ... >>






FROM: Sichon Domrongchai
DATE: Wed 11:35
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

You're right, it may not be authentic. I actually heard something similar on
Howard this morning, and it was stretched even further to fit in with the
events.

Someone had brought it to my attention that "the city of God" refers to
Jerusalem, which makes sense.

Is there a good site out there with his writings?

S I C H O N | D E S I G N
--------------------------------------->
digital media designer
W: 561.218.0063 | M: 561.715.1039
sichon@...
<---------------------------------------


> From: "Eileen 'Turtle' Parzek" <turtle@...>
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:06:15 -0400
> To: "'wwwac'" <wwwac@...>
> Subject: RE: [wwwac] Nostradamus
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sichon Domrongchai <mailto:sichon@...>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:59 PM
>> To: wwwac
>> Subject: [wwwac] Nostradamus
>> 
>> 
>> Not to be melodramatic, but someone sent me this, and it's
>> quite disturbing
>> in context...
>> 
>> "In the City of God there will be a great thunder, two
>> brothers torn apart
>> by chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will
>> succumb.", "The
>> third big war will begin when the big city is burning."
>> 
>> - Nostradamus, 1654
> 
> I guess what makes me crazy about this Nostradamus stuff is that different
> bits of his writings circulated when we went after Sadaam... when we went
> after Khadafy... And we're still here. I think just about anything can be
> interpreted to mean just about anything, and its really all quite
> pointless.  I just got sent this by someone who even changed it to read
> "Nostradamus, September 11, 1654".
> 
> yeah, okay...
> 
> But - now I"m curious to go hunt around the internet and see if this is
> REALLY a nostradamus quote or if its just a convenient bit of legend that
> is making the rounds... too bad I have better things to do at the moment :-P
> 
> turtle
> 
> ~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~
> Eileen "Turtle" Parzek ~  phone~ 518-505-6617
> http://www.turtlesweb.com  mailto:turtle@...
> digital artist ~ information architect ~ project mgr ~ consultant






FROM: David Choi
DATE: Wed 11:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] Paterson

kind of like when we had a huge parade and celebrated when the bomb was
dropped on japan and murdered thousands of innocent japanese.

i don't argue against the US or their policies... i stand behind
whatever our leaders decide, but really, kids in the street celebrating,
shooting their guns... they really just don't know any better.
palestinians in general, who have felt victimized for many years, see
this act as some kind of retribution for their sufferings.

all this is just sick.  all of it.  and as long as humans exist,
senseless violence like this will continue to occur.

-----Original Message-----
From: grimmwerks@... <mailto:grimmwerks@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:26 AM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: [wwwac] Paterson


I'm going to check this out when I get home (Clifton) but I heard on the
radio that there are Palestinians celebrating on Crooks Ave -- makes me
sick.






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 10:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?

I want to respond to this, but I'm reluctant to respond any more because I
know that tensions are high right now, particularly on these subjects.  I'm
not going to try to argue the specifics of history because it is a long and
twisted history that I don't think any of us can completely understand in
it's totality.  In fact, I'm certain that there are many facts, both
historic and current, of which I am unaware.  If you are honest (and you
give me no reason to believe you are not) you would probably admit the same.

My understanding of the Middle East comes from knowing people from there and
from my wife's travel there, as well as trying to follow the news (though,
admittedly, not as much as I should).  I can best address my firsthand
experience of knowing someone.  I know them as human beings that have the
same desires and drives that all humans have.  As humans those drives and
desires sometimes conflict.

Most of the time, my friends were friends.  But there were times that
brought conflict among them.  No one would talk about the Jordanian civil
war because one of them had a brother that was killed there and some were
Jordanian.  Some had their villages wiped out in various civil wars and
internal conflicts and Arab-Arab conflicts.  Every now and then, someone
would touch a nerve and it would get heated.

That is actually my point: it's extremely complex and volatile.  Those
despots prey on the fear and anxiety that comes in situations like this.

The danger is that any person or group believes that they are 100% right and
that their opponent is 100% wrong.  That "God" or "morality" or
"civilization" endows them with some special right to ignore the humanity of
another person.  If we do that, we diminish our own humanity.

To paint with broad brushes who the "enemy" or the "evil" is undermines
justice because it attacks some who are innocent and gives a pass to some
who are guilty.  In this case, that will strengthen the position of those
who are actually guilty.  Further, if we refuse to look at the complex
circumstances that led to this (including non-action, innocent mistakes and
our own role in this) only increases the likelihood that those circumstances
will continue and that something like this will happen again.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ari <mailto:bongwater@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:08 AM
> To: Shirley, Scott
> Cc: wwwac@...
> Subject: RE: [wwwac] war?
> 
> 
> 
> please stop playing your palestinian violin. it's getting tiresome and
> some of the strings are broken.
> 
> if you knew your history and the actual situation over there 
> you wouldn't
> play it as loudly as you have.
> 
> i'm not saying that as a people, they haven't suffered 
> injustices but it's
> a very complicated situation over there. it's also interesting how you
> forgot to mention the 1970 Jordanian civil war. jordan, which 
> is an arab/muslim
> nation fought an incredibly bloody and brutal war against the 
> PLO. many
> palestinians died at their hands. then, after the gulf war, 
> quite a few
> were punished by a vengeful kuwait.
> 
> so, it's not just israelis who have killed palestinians.
> 
> 
> also, it's interesting to point out that *most* muslim 
> nations are ruled
> by despots. if they weren't, we wouldn't have such large 
> communities of
> arab/muslim immigrants to the US in recent years. most are 
> not palestinian
> - many are syrian, egyptian, pakistani, etc.
> 
> the leaders of these countries need a common set of enemies to "fuel"
> their stays in power. doing so helps the average citizen of those
> nations, who has no beef with us, to forget about their poverty and
> problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Shirley, Scott wrote:
> 
> > Remember, the Middle East is an extremely complex and 
> volatile situation.
> > Ben Laden has a beef with Israel.  He also has a beef with 
> us as cultural
> > imperialists.  Muslim nations constantly struggle with 
> maintaining their
> > religious traditions agains the incursions of US culture.  
> It's like a more
> > extreme version of the French (that's the first joke I've 
> been able to make
> > today, so it might not be funny).
> > 
> > The Palestinians also have a beef with Israel.  In fact, 
> they have multiple
> > beefs.
> > 
> > There is, of course, the struggle over real estate that 
> goes back centuries.
> > That in itself is so complex that no one can definitively 
> say who is right
> > or who "deserves" the land.  It's similar to Yugoslavia in 
> that regard.
> > 
> > Then there is the religious conflict.  Most Palestinians 
> are Muslims.
> > However, many are not; many are Christian.  Some are 
> Muslims, but not Muslim
> > extremists.  So for some, this conflict is unimportant.  It 
> is deeply
> > intertwined with the real estate issue, so there are many variations
> > possible there.
> > 
> > Finally, there are a lot of Palestinians, probably all of 
> them, who just
> > want to be free.  They don't want to be forced from their 
> homes in the
> > middle of the night.  They don't want to be shot at.  They 
> don't want to
> > have their property seized.  They don't want to be interred 
> and deported.
> > They don't want to be tortured.  They don't even want to do 
> all the crappy
> > service jobs in Israel for almost no pay.  They just want 
> to live normal
> > lives and they resent the extremists on both sides.
> > 
> > Then there is Israel.  Note that there is a difference 
> between Jews, Judaism
> > and Israel.  It is possible to support one and not the 
> other.  I've read
> > reports that the younger generations are less interested in 
> the religion and
> > more interested in the perpetuation of the state.  Religion 
> is used as a
> > background to create enthusiasm for state activities much 
> like it is used by
> > Islamic fundamentalists and often our own leaders.  Even 
> Saddam Hussein was
> > not particularly interested in religion until he needed to evoke the
> > anti-West sympathies of the Islamic extreme during the Gulf War.
> > Fortunately, it didn't work.
> > 
> > Also, to complicate things further, there are Islamic 
> fundamentalists that
> > are our allies, such as Saudi Arabia.  They resent the 
> cultural incursion of
> > the US (at least on the surface; Allah seems to turn a 
> blind eye when the
> > leave the country), but they have other interests.
> > 
> > The interesting thing is that all this confusion is 
> precisely what keeps the
> > powderkeg from exploding.  There has never been a reason 
> for Arabs to
> > galvanize against the US (or Christians and Jews, depending 
> how the conflict
> > is framed).  Keeping Egypt and Saudi and Syria on our side, 
> as well as
> > Israel, is the key to working toward peace and keeps the 
> situation defused
> > most of the time.  Frequently, someone gets impatient with 
> the slow progress
> > and does something to undermine the situation, inciting 
> extreme views.
> > 
> > An active dialog kept things relatively calm.  The current 
> administration
> > has completely ignored the Middle East and frustrations 
> have been rising.
> > It doesn't excuse the actions, but it can explain the 
> timing and support
> > (probably temporary) of some in the region.  Bombing and 
> arrests may have
> > some effect, but it's hard to know what they will be.  It 
> could stop the
> > whole business.  It could force them underground until we 
> forget or lose
> > interest, then it will happen again and we'll all be 
> surprised and ask, "How
> > could this happen?"  It could also galvanize the extremists 
> on all sides and
> > cause WWIII.  Pakistan, another Ben Laden supporter, does 
> have nukes, though
> > the delivery mechanism may not be very sophisticated.
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Martin T. Focazio <mailto:wwwac@...>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:05 PM
> > > To: eidoru design; wwwac@...
> > > Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > War, in the sense of military action, seems inevitable, 
> no? But what 
> > > is the target? The ideas of the attackers? The various states who 
> > > hate Israel (if this was indeed Bin Laden originated)?
> > > 
> > > When I see pictures of people in Egypt dancing with 
> delight over this 
> > > atrocity, and the Palestinian children firing guns into 
> the air in 
> > > "celebration" of the deaths of what will likely be tens 
> of thousands 
> > > of people, it's hard for me not to want to shoot them myself.
> > > 
> > > I feel all of the emotions you'd expect - anger, a desire for 
> > > vengeance, and more. I still have a part of me that 
> understands that 
> > > dropping bombs will only incite suicidal fanatics who 
> disregard their 
> > > own lives to do it more.
> > > 
> > > In the end, I think we'll be dropping bombs and firing 
> missiles at 
> > > the usual suspects for a while.
> > > 
> > > I can expect the world to be very different starting about now.






FROM: Patrick Crowley
DATE: Wed 11:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] Lower Manhattan Accessibility

I hear no one can go below 14th street. Since I live on Rivington, I guess I
can't go home.

Does anyone have experiences trying to make it back to the L.E.S. or East
Village??!?

Thanks for any info...

Best,
Patrick
mokolabs>>
http://mokolabs.com






FROM: gabriel friedman
DATE: Wed 11:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Paterson

i found it on mapquest...i thought at first you meant brooklyn, where
there's a major arab community on atlantic near flatbush. I'm afraid to go
down there. I wish the networks would stop showing footage of cheering
palestinains....given how unreliable "demonstrations" from that area can be,
i'm sure it would be easy enough to rouse a crowd.

Even if some people are cheering the attack, it only fans the flames right
now...


hope crooks ave is quiet.

> From: <grimmwerks@...>
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:35:28 -0500 (CDT)
> To: gabriel friedman <gfriedma@...>
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] Paterson
> 
> 
> Its...well, kind of between 46 and Hazel street, parrallel to Valley and
> Broad, if you know the area.
> 
> It's not that far from my house.
> 
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, gabriel friedman wrote:
> 
>> where is crooks ave?
>> 
>>> From: <grimmwerks@...>
>>> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:26:24 -0500 (CDT)
>>> To: wwwac@...
>>> Subject: [wwwac] Paterson
>>> 
>>> I'm going to check this out when I get home (Clifton) but I heard on the
>>> radio that there are Palestinians celebrating on Crooks Ave -- makes me
>>> sick.






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 15:44
SUBJ: [wwwac] A pilot (and almost-friend) was near the second attack

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=3b9e634d%40news2.lightlink.com

	- Andrew






FROM: Druce Vertes
DATE: Wed 11:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] passengers took over PA plane?

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DQo=







FROM: Martin T. Focazio
DATE: Wed 11:49
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rideshare Plans

It looks like air traffic will be shut down for a while. You best bet 
to head west is probably to take the train. Amtrak is running. I'm 
willing to drive into the Newark airport area today to pick up a few 
people to drive them to Philly 30th street station later today.

If you know of anyone stuck in Newark who would like to travel this 
way, pass them my contact information (see below)



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin T. Focazio
Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
Martin T. Focazio LLC.
Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
610.847.1118 voice
mtfocazio AOL IM
focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 11:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon

don't go to the airport without calling beforehand

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 11:55
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

--part1_111.534b7ac.28d0df7a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 9/12/2001 11:03:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
ruben@... writes:


> <<Terrorism is the last resort of oppressed groups who have no other 
> options.>>
> 
> That's BULL SHIT.  Did you see Jewish Radical pull down the Empire State
> Building during the Holocaust.
> 

Why am I not surprised when some guy named Reuben from Brooklyn gets foul 
mouthed, irrational and hysterical when someone tries to provide some balance 
to yesterday's terrorist attack?

In fact, the Jewish radicals of post-WWII did commit heinous acts of 
terrorism against the British government and killed a great many innocent 
British people with terrorist bombs in government buildings and public places 
(cafes, shopping districts).  The British rightly labeled them terrorists, 
and offered rewards for their capture. That's historical fact. Some of those 
radicals, who didn't get caught and hanged, took high office in the new 
goverment of the Jewish state when it was established. 

As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes, 
starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.) do 
we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone to?

The average age of the Palestinians fighting for the simple right to live is 
probably about the average age of the members of this WWAC list. They are not 
a bunch of old power mongers.  They are young men and women who can not so 
much as build a shack to shelter their children without fear of the threat 
that well-fed and laughing Israeli soldiers will bulldoze that shelter down.

It really disgusts me when the same people who whined a few days ago about 
having to work at such a low rate as $20 an hour (unthinkable!!!!) are 
shocked that people in another country are distressed to the point of madness 
at not being able to have something as simple as shelter.

By the way, all this hiding behind "democracy and freedom" need some thought. 
In Israel, you can not vote if you are not Jewish: Period. You may, however, 
pass through their well-guarded borders to clean their toilets and shine 
their shoes and do other things which Israeilis would rather not do for 
themselves.

All the people who love to declare themselves LIBERAL,  and who are big grand 
defenders of the "poor" the "minorities" and the "weak," can always be 
counted on to turn a revoltingingly racist eye from the plight of 
Palestinians and some others ethnic groups. It is nothing short of virulent 
racism.

As someone with a keen sense of his own family's long history of rebellion 
against a foreign power, I wish that America would be more open to 
Palestinians' welfare on the land where they have born and raised.

-Jim

--part1_111.534b7ac.28d0df7a_boundary--





FROM: Kathy Forer
DATE: Wed 11:47
SUBJ: [wwwac] Please send socks

For the moment, the blood banks want Type O only.

Do you have a reference for the socks? Bring socks and sweats to a 
local police station, or do they want only wholesale or retail-type 
truckloads? Thanks.

At 6:14 AM -0700 9/12/01, Paula Freedman wrote:
>Not a joke -- just heard on the news that emergency
>workers who are set up at Chelsea Piers need dry socks
>and sweat pants. They've been working all night and
>morning in wet shoes and socks getting nasty blisters.
>News is saying to bring dry socks and sweats to
>Chelsea Piers.






FROM: stas
DATE: Wed 12:07
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

You've done it. You should expect a "your e-mail has been REJECTED" from him
now.

----- Original Message -----
From: <JRFarrell17@...>

Why am I not surprised when some guy named Reuben from Brooklyn gets foul
mouthed, irrational and hysterical when someone tries to provide some
balance
to yesterday's terrorist attack?






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 11:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] Help build attack link directory

> what happened to the time when things were just wrong

Two world wars, Vietnam, Nixon, Civil Rights, Existentialism.  I could go
on, but basically we woke up.

> and we didn't have to get into understand why they
> were comitting their particular form of evil.

If we don't understand evil, by looking it in the face and recognizing that
it is a part of us and we are a part of it, we will never adequately deal
with it.

Scott






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 11:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Fun
	ding

The sad (and frightening) irony is that our "help" in Afghanistan was
training Ben Laden to carry out terrorist activities against Russia.  I
guess we do bear some responsibility after all.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grimmwerks@... <mailto:grimmwerks@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:28 AM
> To: Matt
> Cc: wwwac
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of
> Funding
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why bush said 'the countries that harbor' them would 
> be part of
> the retaliation. I think he wants the government to give them 
> up - given
> the US's help with Arafat and Afghanistan against the USSR in 
> the past,
> you'd think we'd have a little more help...
> 
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Matt wrote:
> 
> > Can you even declare war officially against an individual 
> or organization?
> > Given Osama Bin Laden's (assuming he's guilty) high 
> mobility, it may be more
> > complicated than declaring war on one nation, since he 
> could be in twelve
> > different countries in as many days. It may be more like a 
> cat-and-mouse chase
> > with heavy weaponry.
> > 
> > "Martin T. Focazio" wrote:
> > 
> > > Bush calls it "an act of war"
> > > Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
> > > Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"
> > >
> > > Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a 
> declaration of war.
> > >
> > >   (but against whom?)
> > >
> > > --
> > > 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Martin T. Focazio
> > > Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
> > > Martin T. Focazio LLC.
> > > Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
> > > 610.847.1118 voice
> > > mtfocazio AOL IM
> > > focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: Adam Guasch-Melendez
DATE: Wed 12:03
SUBJ: [wwwac] DC vigil tonight


Since some folks on this list are in the DC area (like me - I was
waiting for a train at the Pentagon metro station, underground but
connecting with the Pentagon itself, when the plane hit), I thought I'd
pass this on.

---------------------------------
For those of you who are in or near DC.

Tonight at 8:30 p.m. people are gathering on the East Front of the
Capitol to stand in unity and recognize the innocent lives that were
lost yesterday. Coming together will reaffirm that, now more than
ever, the United States is still a beacon of freedom.

Please pass this e-mail along to anyone who might want to attend. The
sun sets tonight at 7:21, so it will be dusk. Bring candles if you
wish. If the Capitol steps are inaccessible, as they might be, we
will meet in front of the East Front pond, on the west side of 3rd
Street if necessary.






FROM: Matt
DATE: Wed 12:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] passengers took over PA plane?

i heard it on the news this morning as well.

Druce Vertes wrote:

> not necessarily true, but plausible...
> http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/currentmail.html#eye
>
> Dear Jerry,
>
> Following is a message which my one of my best friends passed along with permission to distribute to those who might be interested. It fills in the details that I missed in my original conversation with him and attempted to relate to you.
>
> Tom has given me permission to distribute the message - please feel free to post it if you deem it appropriate.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Art Russell Major, US Army (Retired)
>
> Message Follows:
>
> Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93 this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called my niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police what was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened, Jeremy told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a large red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second by second details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy and the other patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground that would have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their heinous mission.
>
> Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father.
>
> May we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save many others.
>
> Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our family during this time of great sadness
>
> All of my best,
>
> Tom






FROM: Jen Shorten
DATE: Wed 09:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

Have some respect for all of the people who are dead
and are dying by not continuing this thread.

I would hope that we could all act with some small
sense of dignity and not diminish the magnitude of
what has happened here by spewing sensless and useless
hatred on this list.

Arguing amongst ourselves as to who is the most evil
and who deserves to arrested and who should all be
bombed and killed will not help anyone, it makes those
who are saying such things look foolish and ignorant
and disrespectful to those who have been killed.

J


--- JRFarrell17@... wrote:

> Why am I not surprised when some guy named Reuben
> from Brooklyn gets foul 
> mouthed, irrational and hysterical when someone
> tries to provide some balance 
> to yesterday's terrorist attack?
> 
> In fact, the Jewish radicals of post-WWII did commit
> heinous acts of 
> terrorism against the British government and killed
> a great many innocent 
> British people with terrorist bombs in government
> buildings and public places 
> (cafes, shopping districts).  The British rightly
> labeled them terrorists, 
> and offered rewards for their capture. That's
> historical fact. Some of those 
> radicals, who didn't get caught and hanged, took
> high office in the new 
> goverment of the Jewish state when it was
> established. 
> 
> As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another
> bulldozing their homes, 
> starving them, shooting those who protest (like
> children with rocks, etc.) do 
> we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths
> Palestinians have gone to?
> 
> The average age of the Palestinians fighting for the
> simple right to live is 
> probably about the average age of the members of
> this WWAC list. They are not 
> a bunch of old power mongers.  They are young men
> and women who can not so 
> much as build a shack to shelter their children
> without fear of the threat 
> that well-fed and laughing Israeli soldiers will
> bulldoze that shelter down.
> 
> It really disgusts me when the same people who
> whined a few days ago about 
> having to work at such a low rate as $20 an hour
> (unthinkable!!!!) are 
> shocked that people in another country are
> distressed to the point of madness 
> at not being able to have something as simple as
> shelter.
> 
> By the way, all this hiding behind "democracy and
> freedom" need some thought. 
> In Israel, you can not vote if you are not Jewish:
> Period. You may, however, 
> pass through their well-guarded borders to clean
> their toilets and shine 
> their shoes and do other things which Israeilis
> would rather not do for 
> themselves.
> 
> All the people who love to declare themselves
> LIBERAL,  and who are big grand 
> defenders of the "poor" the "minorities" and the
> "weak," can always be 
> counted on to turn a revoltingingly racist eye from
> the plight of 
> Palestinians and some others ethnic groups. It is
> nothing short of virulent 
> racism.
> 
> As someone with a keen sense of his own family's
> long history of rebellion 
> against a foreign power, I wish that America would
> be more open to 
> Palestinians' welfare on the land where they have
> born and raised.
> 
> -Jim
> 


__________________________________________________
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http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 12:16
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?



Add me to the list for being foul-mouthed:

Fuck the Palestinians. When they stop the terror, my attitude toward
them will change.



Now for the history lesson:

In 1948, Arab and Jew lived side-by-side. Not all were friends but they
co-existed. NOTE: Whatever land the Jews lived in at the time was
purchased from the Arabs. The Jews worked the land and re-claimed it.

Then, when Israel was formed after the approval of the UN in 1948, the
leaders of Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Jordan as well as the Grand Mufti of
Jerusalem persuaded 88% of the Arabs living in Palestine at the time to
leave. They would be allowed to return once the Jews were eliminated. 
Well, the Jews managed to survive and establish a nation. The 12% or
so of the Arabs who remained became Israeli citizens.

The rest got screwed. They made their choice and it was, unfortunately
for them, the wrong one.


As an aside, Israel has problems with the Palestinans prior to 1967 and
the capture of Gaza and the West Bank. Palestinian acts of terror against
Israelis are well documented from the late 1940s thru 1967 and beyond.


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 JRFarrell17@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/12/2001 11:03:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> ruben@... writes:
> 
> 
> > <<Terrorism is the last resort of oppressed groups who have no other 
> > options.>>
> > 
> > That's BULL SHIT.  Did you see Jewish Radical pull down the Empire State
> > Building during the Holocaust.
> > 
> 
> Why am I not surprised when some guy named Reuben from Brooklyn gets foul 
> mouthed, irrational and hysterical when someone tries to provide some balance 
> to yesterday's terrorist attack?
> 
> In fact, the Jewish radicals of post-WWII did commit heinous acts of 
> terrorism against the British government and killed a great many innocent 
> British people with terrorist bombs in government buildings and public places 
> (cafes, shopping districts).  The British rightly labeled them terrorists, 
> and offered rewards for their capture. That's historical fact. Some of those 
> radicals, who didn't get caught and hanged, took high office in the new 
> goverment of the Jewish state when it was established. 
> 
> As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes, 
> starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.) do 
> we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone to?
> 
> The average age of the Palestinians fighting for the simple right to live is 
> probably about the average age of the members of this WWAC list. They are not 
> a bunch of old power mongers.  They are young men and women who can not so 
> much as build a shack to shelter their children without fear of the threat 
> that well-fed and laughing Israeli soldiers will bulldoze that shelter down.
> 
> It really disgusts me when the same people who whined a few days ago about 
> having to work at such a low rate as $20 an hour (unthinkable!!!!) are 
> shocked that people in another country are distressed to the point of madness 
> at not being able to have something as simple as shelter.
> 
> By the way, all this hiding behind "democracy and freedom" need some thought. 
> In Israel, you can not vote if you are not Jewish: Period. You may, however, 
> pass through their well-guarded borders to clean their toilets and shine 
> their shoes and do other things which Israeilis would rather not do for 
> themselves.
> 
> All the people who love to declare themselves LIBERAL,  and who are big grand 
> defenders of the "poor" the "minorities" and the "weak," can always be 
> counted on to turn a revoltingingly racist eye from the plight of 
> Palestinians and some others ethnic groups. It is nothing short of virulent 
> racism.
> 
> As someone with a keen sense of his own family's long history of rebellion 
> against a foreign power, I wish that America would be more open to 
> Palestinians' welfare on the land where they have born and raised.
> 
> -Jim






FROM: Jonathan Ezor
DATE: Wed 12:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] Flight ban has been extended indefinitely--and an somewhat on-topic announcement

According to WCBS 880 AM, the FAA is not sure when it will lift the current
flight ban over the United States.  {Jonathan}

p.s. For those of you for whom it may be relevant, my synagogue Web site has
set up a page where people can list the Hebrew names of the injured or
missing so that, in accordance with Jewish tradition, prayers or psalms may
be said on their behalf.  Go to <http://www.yinhp.org/names.htm> to see the
names and find out how to add others, and please pass along the word to
anyone you think may be interested.  {J}






FROM: Jonathan Kopp
DATE: Wed 11:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] kabul on fire - to clarify

Okay, this thread is dead, I know, but just to clarify what I meant.
Of course I know that India is not primarily a muslim state, but Pakistan 
is, and Pakistan has voiced support for other muslim countries including its 
near neighbor Afghanistan.

India is ostensibly an ally but has been very close to war with Pakistan for 
some time now. Both are nuclear capable.

My point being that before we all get too worked up over war fever we need 
to consider that the world is in a very volatile destabilized state right 
now and any general conflict could quickly spread to regions that don't seem 
directly involved. There are a lot of groups with axes to grind. A 
militarized US could spark conflict all over the world.


>From: "David Choi" <dave@...>
>To: "Amita Guha" <bfift2girl@...>
>CC: <wwwac@...>
>Subject: RE: [wwwac] kabul on fire
>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:00:05 -0400
>
>yeah please... i know everyone is angry, confused, shocked, but please,
>if you're ignorant, just shut the f**k up.
>
>also, i heard some were beating cabbies.  i sincerely hope that isn't
>true.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Amita Guha <mailto:bfift2girl@...>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:31 PM
>Cc: wwwac@...
>Subject: RE: [wwwac] kabul on fire
>
>
> > Consider:
> > Do we really want general war with the muslim world?
> > We could kiss nuclear-capable India and Pakistan good-bye in that
>case.
>
>India's not muslim...it's 85% Hindu or something like that.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp






FROM: Bobby Thompson
DATE: Wed 09:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon


--- Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...> wrote:
> don't go to the airport without calling beforehand


Do you know where to get the most up to date info on
flights leaving jfk to europe? It seems like flights
are cancelled for the whole day, I even heard from a
British Airways rep they could ground flights until
the 15th!

I checked the official JFK site and found it pretty
useless, as phone lines seem to be busy, any links
with up to date info will be most appreciated.


Bobby

__________________________________________________
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FROM: Adam Guasch-Melendez
DATE: Wed 12:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] STOP!


God damn it, people! There are dead and injured people still buried under
tons of rubble, and a nation in shock.

STOP THE STUPID BICKERING OVER ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

There's a time, and a place. This isn't it.

STOP.

NOW.






FROM: Adam Guasch-Melendez
DATE: Wed 12:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon


> Do you know where to get the most up to date info on
> flights leaving jfk to europe? 

There isn't any up-to-date info. All planes are grounded as of now. How
long that will last, when planes can fly again, how the schedules will be
affected, are questions that don't have answers yet. No sites will have
better info, since the FAA hasn't decided yet. Until they act, nobody else
can do or plan anything.






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 12:27
SUBJ: [wwwac] STOP!


you're right. i apologize.



On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Adam Guasch-Melendez wrote:

> 
> God damn it, people! There are dead and injured people still buried under
> tons of rubble, and a nation in shock.
> 
> STOP THE STUPID BICKERING OVER ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.
> 
> There's a time, and a place. This isn't it.
> 
> STOP.
> 
> NOW.






FROM: Sally Minker
DATE: Wed 12:34
SUBJ: [wwwac] Thank goodness for email and the internet

My husband works in the Wall Street area, and he was down there 
yesterday. Thankfully, he could call me from his office and let me 
know what he was going to do. He got out safely by walking across the 
Brooklyn Bridge and then home to Park Slope.

Most of the phone calls I tried to make out of my apartment wouldn't 
go through because the circuits were overloaded, and we still can't 
make phone calls to New Jersey even today.

But my email was working fine yesterday (it's even Verizon DSL), and 
I was able to communicate with our relatives, as well as people in 
Manhattan who I couldn't reach on the phone due to circuit overloads. 
A Russian friend who also walked here was able to email her friends 
in Russia to tell them that she was ok. It really helped.

--Sally


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

sally@...
http://www.sallyminker.com






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 12:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon

At 12:24 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Adam Guasch-Melendez wrote:

> > Do you know where to get the most up to date info on
> > flights leaving jfk to europe?
>
>There isn't any up-to-date info. All planes are grounded as of now. How
>long that will last, when planes can fly again, how the schedules will be
>affected, are questions that don't have answers yet. No sites will have
>better info, since the FAA hasn't decided yet. Until they act, nobody else
>can do or plan anything.

the faa has grounded all us airport travel indefinitely

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: gibbs
DATE: Wed 12:38
SUBJ: [wwwac] movie reel

------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C13B87.C9443A00
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We need some optimism.

Broadband users only: A Brief History of Silicon Alley, presents =
sponsorship reel

http://mfile.akamai.com/5494/wmv/www.mamisi.com/media/rustik/siliconalley=
.asx?obj=3Dv1

Send all comments via wwwac





------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C13B87.C9443A00--






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 16:43
SUBJ: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon

In article <Pine.BSF.4.21.0109121222100.71728-100000@...>,
	agm@... (Adam Guasch-Melendez) writes:
> 
>> Do you know where to get the most up to date info on
>> flights leaving jfk to europe? 
> 
> There isn't any up-to-date info. All planes are grounded as of now. How
> long that will last, when planes can fly again, how the schedules will be
> affected, are questions that don't have answers yet. No sites will have
> better info, since the FAA hasn't decided yet. Until they act, nobody else
> can do or plan anything.
> 

You can see the notice at www.duat.com.  Presumably, when the 
flight ban is lifted or modified, notice will also be available
there.

I'd also guess that information may be available at FAA.GOV, 
but I keep getting a 'connection refused' error from that
site.

	- Andrew






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 12:44
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 2:12 PM -0400 9/11/01, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
>Now what we should be immediately be planning to rebuild the buildings.
>
>We must remove the scare right now.


I agree.

Instead of leveling the place and turn it into a monument, we should 
rebuild the Twin Towers. Maybe even a couple stories higher. That 
would be the /ultimate/ monument. And to those cowards it would say, 
Fuck You! Just come and try that again!






FROM: Vlad Kolarov
DATE: Wed 09:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] mentality

If you want to have a better understanding of the kind of mentality that
could cause such outrages, check out this site:

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/anwarshaikh/jacp1
.html

It explains all.

Vlad Kolarov
http://www.vladkolarov.com






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 12:47
SUBJ: [wwwac] Looking for Info on GGN and/or Internap

Trying to get access to GGN and or Internap with absolutely no luck. any info regarding these ISPs would be great?






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 12:51
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

Hey Jim, you really know your shit, don't you?

Before you get in a lather about Israeli Democracy, why don't you do some
research on the web and see that all Arab Israelis have the right to vote
and have representatives in the Knesset. That's a fact.  Period.

The fact that the leader of the Palestinian people is a unselected leader is
somewhat unsettling, don't you think?


On 12-09-2001 11:55, "JRFarrell17@... <JRFarrell17@...> wrote:

> In a message dated 9/12/2001 11:03:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ruben@... writes:
> 
> 
>> <<Terrorism is the last resort of oppressed groups who have no other
>> options.>>
>> 
>> That's BULL SHIT.  Did you see Jewish Radical pull down the Empire State
>> Building during the Holocaust.
>> 
> 
> Why am I not surprised when some guy named Reuben from Brooklyn gets foul
> mouthed, irrational and hysterical when someone tries to provide some balance
> to yesterday's terrorist attack?
> 
> In fact, the Jewish radicals of post-WWII did commit heinous acts of
> terrorism against the British government and killed a great many innocent
> British people with terrorist bombs in government buildings and public places
> (cafes, shopping districts).  The British rightly labeled them terrorists,
> and offered rewards for their capture. That's historical fact. Some of those
> radicals, who didn't get caught and hanged, took high office in the new
> goverment of the Jewish state when it was established.
> 
> As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes,
> starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.) do
> we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone to?
> 
> The average age of the Palestinians fighting for the simple right to live is
> probably about the average age of the members of this WWAC list. They are not
> a bunch of old power mongers.  They are young men and women who can not so
> much as build a shack to shelter their children without fear of the threat
> that well-fed and laughing Israeli soldiers will bulldoze that shelter down.
> 
> It really disgusts me when the same people who whined a few days ago about
> having to work at such a low rate as $20 an hour (unthinkable!!!!) are
> shocked that people in another country are distressed to the point of madness
> at not being able to have something as simple as shelter.
> 
> By the way, all this hiding behind "democracy and freedom" need some thought.
> In Israel, you can not vote if you are not Jewish: Period. You may, however,
> pass through their well-guarded borders to clean their toilets and shine
> their shoes and do other things which Israeilis would rather not do for
> themselves.
> 
> All the people who love to declare themselves LIBERAL,  and who are big grand
> defenders of the "poor" the "minorities" and the "weak," can always be
> counted on to turn a revoltingingly racist eye from the plight of
> Palestinians and some others ethnic groups. It is nothing short of virulent
> racism.
> 
> As someone with a keen sense of his own family's long history of rebellion
> against a foreign power, I wish that America would be more open to
> Palestinians' welfare on the land where they have born and raised.
> 
> -Jim






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 12:52
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now



I agree with that too. Hell, we should build a third tower just for good
measure.


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, hens wrote:

> At 2:12 PM -0400 9/11/01, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
> >Now what we should be immediately be planning to rebuild the buildings.
> >
> >We must remove the scare right now.
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Instead of leveling the place and turn it into a monument, we should 
> rebuild the Twin Towers. Maybe even a couple stories higher. That 
> would be the /ultimate/ monument. And to those cowards it would say, 
> Fuck You! Just come and try that again!






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 12:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] I'm fine, was on the runway at Newark

Hi, all...

First off, my prayers are with everyone in the country, and around the 
world today, affected by this tragedy.

I want to thank the WWWAC list - You served as my, and the rest of United 
Flight 425, from Newark to Colorado's link to the outside world for about 
20 minutes.

I boarded that flight at Newark at 7:40 in the morning. There were 14 
flights ahead of us for takeoff, according to the pilot. I nodded off.

The pilot came back on when we were fourth for takeoff, telling us that 
something was wrong with the World Trade Center, and we'd be waiting on the 
runway for a few minutes.

I pulled out my Visor and wireless modem, and instantly checked my email. 
As I was, the pilot announced that a plane accidentally flew into the World 
Trade Center. Everyone looked to their left out of the plane, and sure 
enough, there was smoke coming off the horizon.

That's when I got the first few emails from the list, talking about it. 
Within 2 more minutes, I'd found out about the Pentagon as well.

I became the link to the outside world for the next 15 minutes, with the 
flight attendants and passengers waiting for the 30 second email checks. I 
read them off as I got them.

The pilot came back on and said we were returning to the gate. We all sat 
down. In all the time I've been flying, that moment was the scariest time 
of my life. We barreled back to the gate faster than I've ever seen it 
before. Something in my mind just told me to get off the plane and turn in 
my ticket. At that point, the airport was still open.

We got outside of the gate, and that's when it hit me - I was looking at 
the skyline, and one of the towers was NOT THERE. That was the first time I 
realized the magnitude of what happened.

We waited at the outside of the terminal for about 3 hours - I wound up 
finding about 5 people, all of whom didn't know each other, but sort of 
came together as a group. My visor was overloaded at that point, and I 
couldn't get a signal. But my Motorola Timeport 2 way pager was still on, 
and I was able to send messages to my parents, finding out that they were 
both ok.

Finally, we found a bus that was able to take us to another terminal, where 
we waited... A guy in a van came by, and took me and my five new friends to 
the Marriott, still on airport property.

We hung out in their bar for about five hours, it was around 6pm by this 
time. Somehow, I managed to get a room at the hotel, and I grabbed my new 
friends, and we went and washed our faces for the first time in about 12 hours.

We went downstairs afterwards, and sat on the lawn, on the grass. It was 
surreal - the smell of the grass, a beautiful sunset, and in the 
background, smoke, soot, dust, and a hole where the world trade center used 
to be. Truly, truly surreal.

We went back upstairs, and just fell asleep. Totally exhausted. Left the 
television on, and six people, none of whom had ever met before, 2 of whom 
spoke Japanese and very little English, all fell asleep on a king size bed, 
all holding each other.

Woke up early this morning, and no cars were going in or out of Newark. We 
gathered our suitcases, and started walking. We walked out of the hotel, 
and out of the airport. We walked on the roads, on the ramps, until we got 
onto Route 9 North. A poultry truck stopped for us, and told us he could 
get us to right outside of downtown Newark. We thanked him, and climbed 
into the back of the truck. Once we got to downtown Newark, we walked a few 
more miles to the PATH train, which was running to 33rd St. We got on the 
train, and got to Penn Station.

I walked out of Penn Station, looked up 8th avenue, looked down 8th avenue, 
and started crying, as I started walking home to my apartment on 43rd St.

If I can help anyone in any way, please let me know - whatever I can do.

Stay safe, God Bless... We WILL get through this horrible act of senseless 
violence and terrorism, and we will be stronger from it.


Good luck to all,

-Peter Shankman



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com
You know, Rick, I have many a friend in Casablanca, but somehow, just 
because you despise me, you are the only one I trust.
- Ugarte (Peter Lorre), Casablanca






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 11:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] STOP!

My intention wasn't to bicker, but to understand.  If it seemed otherwise, I
apologize as well.

Unfortunately, trying to understand is all that many of us can do.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ari <mailto:bongwater@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:27 PM
> To: Adam Guasch-Melendez
> Cc: wwwac@...
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] STOP!
> 
> 
> 
> you're right. i apologize.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Adam Guasch-Melendez wrote:
> 
> > 
> > God damn it, people! There are dead and injured people 
> still buried under
> > tons of rubble, and a nation in shock.
> > 
> > STOP THE STUPID BICKERING OVER ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.
> > 
> > There's a time, and a place. This isn't it.
> > 
> > STOP.
> > 
> > NOW.






FROM: Bill Volk
DATE: Wed 09:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

I'm buying some stock today.  I have no idea what companies ... but I'll be
dammed if these evil bastards are going to put us into a recession.

Bill






FROM: ujin_c
DATE: Wed 10:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] our beloved city



i am a NEW YORKER first and foremost (everything else is unimportant) and i
am PISSED that these f**ckers pick my town to do this.

this is the world's city, people around the world can always find some
commonality when they're here. no matter which part of the world you're
from, you can always find some part of you here, whether it's language,
fellow expat, book, food, music, etc.

it's really f**cked up that our beloved city paid the price for past
mistakes made by our politicians in washington.

but everyone please stop bickering, go out and lend a hand to help restore
our beloved city.
just my way to dealing with this chaos.

- uc.






FROM: Joshua S. Freeman
DATE: Wed 13:00
SUBJ: [wwwac] suspect may be in westin hotel in downtown boston

just heard on http://www.wbur.org/

massive police presence at the westin hotel, downtown boston... a suspect
in yesterday's action may be holed up on the 16th floor of the hotel...

         -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
           Joshua S. Freeman | preferred email: jfreeman@...  
                   pgp public key: finger jfreeman@...
                          http://www.threeofus.com
                 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-






FROM: Raphi Salem
DATE: Wed 12:57
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

Jim, Jim, Jim,
All American not-biased not racist Jim.
Your comments are bigoted and disgusting. It is one thing to be LIBERAL. It
is another to LABEL. Can you please cool it on the anti-Semitic comments. It
offends all of us...
Once again, thank you for proving the point that one should never blame the
victim. You and your kind should wake up and open up your heart and mind a
little more. Actually, A LOT more. As for the people who want this thread to
stop, I disagree. Without dialogue there can be no understanding. However,
we must discuss in a rational, calm and productive manner. No hatred - just
peaceful talk.

Jim, your historical facts need a few revisions.

(Ari - thanks for the lesson. Just to add to it, prior to the 1940's and the
creation of the State of Israel, Jews/Zionists were also oppressed
specifically during the 1920's. The first Arab riots against the Jews took
place in April 1920. Scarcely a year later the Arabs launched a further
attack against the Jews. This time the unrest began on the Tel Aviv-Jaffa
border (May 1921), reaching Jerusalem on November 2, 1921, the anniversary
of the Balfour Declaration. That year 43 Jews were killed and 134 injured.
The Jewish leaders at the time believed that the British Mandatory
government could be relied on to defend the Yishuv in times of need. The
events of 1929 proved these beliefs hopelessly misplaced. The riots began in
Jerusalem. They commenced with anti-Jewish agitation during Friday prayers
at the El Aksa mosque and attacks on Jewish bystanders. The Arab rioters
attacked Jews in the Old City, and from there moved on to the new Jewish
quarters outside the City walls. From Jerusalem the riots proceeded to
spread to other parts of the country. The worst incidents occurred in
Hebron, where rioters moved from house to house, murdering any Jews they
encountered. In all, 133 Jews were killed and 230 were injured in the course
of one week.)

as Jim writes:
"As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes,
starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.)
do we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone
to?"

Yes we have to wonder what lengths. Are you suggesting that you support
these horrible acts TODAY? I should hope not.

Jim also writes
"people in another country are distressed to the point of madness at not
being able to have something as simple as shelter."

FYI - PLENTY of Palestinians live very well in Israel, Gaza and the West
Bank. They make real money, spend it and enjoy a pretty normal life. They
vote as Israeli citizens and have pretty good jobs. How do I know? I have
lived in Israel, interacted with them and enjoyed their company. In
addition, I have also visited other various Middle Eastern countries and can
say that the people enjoy an equal if not a more free and democratic life.
When are you going to understand that Israel is the only democracy in the
Middle East and only true ally of the United States and the free world?

The people you are speaking of are refugees that are mostly living in UN
camps and cities with regular apartment buildings and homes. (btw, these
camps also exist in Jordan and Syria.) They are NOT being bulldozed for
existing. Some homes get destroyed AFTER criminal and terrorist activity.
When security doesn't work, lessons do. When someone blows themselves up in
a public restaurant, you have to punish someone. When someone slams a plane
into an American national landmark, you go after the terrorists, their
supporters and the people who are hiding them. That's what our US government
just declared. Don't you agree?

I would prefer more alternative positive solutions instead of
finger-pointing and blame. I would also prefer equality for the Jews in the
Middle East as well as the Palestinians. Don't discount the US' past
involvement in peaceful solutions for the Middle East. The US has tried time
and time again to get the Israelis and Palestinians to the negotiating
table. Oslo in the early 90's was the beginning of potential peace, but
Arafat was not able to accept the proposal. (I guess 90% is not 100% - cause
that's what was proposed.) Then the Palestinians responded with violence.
(And now celebration in the streets - not very cool at all) Let's cut the
violence and come back to the table. Maybe we can all learn from these
events how to co-exist.
r
Raphi Salem
WorldWide JewishWeb
www.JewishWeb.com
SalemGlobal Internet Web Design and Programming
www.salemglobal.com
315 West 36th Street #508
NY, NY 10018
T) 212-736-9636
F) 212-736-2896
raphis@...
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRFarrell17@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?


> In a message dated 9/12/2001 11:03:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> ruben@... writes:
>
>
> > <<Terrorism is the last resort of oppressed groups who have no other
> > options.>>
> >
> > That's BULL SHIT.  Did you see Jewish Radical pull down the Empire State
> > Building during the Holocaust.
> >
>
> Why am I not surprised when some guy named Reuben from Brooklyn gets foul
> mouthed, irrational and hysterical when someone tries to provide some
balance
> to yesterday's terrorist attack?
>
> In fact, the Jewish radicals of post-WWII did commit heinous acts of
> terrorism against the British government and killed a great many innocent
> British people with terrorist bombs in government buildings and public
places
> (cafes, shopping districts).  The British rightly labeled them terrorists,
> and offered rewards for their capture. That's historical fact. Some of
those
> radicals, who didn't get caught and hanged, took high office in the new
> goverment of the Jewish state when it was established.
>
> As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes,
> starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.)
do
> we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone
to?
>
> The average age of the Palestinians fighting for the simple right to live
is
> probably about the average age of the members of this WWAC list. They are
not
> a bunch of old power mongers.  They are young men and women who can not so
> much as build a shack to shelter their children without fear of the threat
> that well-fed and laughing Israeli soldiers will bulldoze that shelter
down.
>
> It really disgusts me when the same people who whined a few days ago about
> having to work at such a low rate as $20 an hour (unthinkable!!!!) are
> shocked that people in another country are distressed to the point of
madness
> at not being able to have something as simple as shelter.
>
> By the way, all this hiding behind "democracy and freedom" need some
thought.
> In Israel, you can not vote if you are not Jewish: Period. You may,
however,
> pass through their well-guarded borders to clean their toilets and shine
> their shoes and do other things which Israeilis would rather not do for
> themselves.
>
> All the people who love to declare themselves LIBERAL,  and who are big
grand
> defenders of the "poor" the "minorities" and the "weak," can always be
> counted on to turn a revoltingingly racist eye from the plight of
> Palestinians and some others ethnic groups. It is nothing short of
virulent
> racism.
>
> As someone with a keen sense of his own family's long history of rebellion
> against a foreign power, I wish that America would be more open to
> Palestinians' welfare on the land where they have born and raised.
>
> -Jim






FROM: dori
DATE: Wed 10:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] just wondering...

i've heard the word 'coward' used to describe the suicide bombers more
than once (first by "president" bush, and here, as well)...

how is it that someone who can infiltrate federal systems, hijack a plane
and then DRIVE IT RIGHT INTO A HUGE BUILDING is referred to as a 'coward'?

just curious - i realize it's off-topic and pointless...

on another note, my website has gone nuts in the past two days, and
because of that i've received a few militant anti-arab, heavily
pro-zionist emails - some of them from people i thought were friends, who
obviously didn't stop to think about the fact that i'm
arab...  god...  one even stated that any support of the palestinian cause
was supporting pure terrorism...  hmmm...  makes me glad the Native
Americans are, and have remained, pacifists.

during the gulf war, my father caught a lot of shit for the fact that he
is arab...  stupid shit, like being searched more heavily in the airports,
being called names on the street, etc...  apparently, deli owners are
lying about their heritage here...

one of the things we need to learn from all of this is that the political
views of the people don't reflect in any sense the political views of
their home countries' governments - and that we have to be a little more
tolerant of that fact, ESPECIALLY in america...  

dori

Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:33:30 EDT
To: innovator@... wwwac@...
From: Erinpbennett@...
Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
Message-ID: <e5.c09cbc7.28d0da4a@...>

you don't look around and say "oh, well, so what if those roaches just
tore 
open my loaf of Wonder Bread" you spray them with Raid. You kill them. You 
make them suffer. 

and right now, i love roaches compared to these cowardly suicidal
bastards.

-erin
http://www.gigglechick.com/erin/blog/
the perfect combo of estrogen and a sense of humor






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 12:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon

There was at least the suggestion on CNN that airports might not open until
they can comply with more stringent security regulations.

By the way, it looks like they are making arrests right now in Boston.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ag797@... <mailto:ag797@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:44 PM
> To: wwwac@...
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] airports probably won't reopen at noon
> 
> 
> In article <Pine.BSF.4.21.0109121222100.71728-100000@...>,
> 	agm@... (Adam Guasch-Melendez) writes:
> > 
> >> Do you know where to get the most up to date info on
> >> flights leaving jfk to europe? 
> > 
> > There isn't any up-to-date info. All planes are grounded as 
> of now. How
> > long that will last, when planes can fly again, how the 
> schedules will be
> > affected, are questions that don't have answers yet. No 
> sites will have
> > better info, since the FAA hasn't decided yet. Until they 
> act, nobody else
> > can do or plan anything.
> > 
> 
> You can see the notice at www.duat.com.  Presumably, when the 
> flight ban is lifted or modified, notice will also be available
> there.
> 
> I'd also guess that information may be available at FAA.GOV, 
> but I keep getting a 'connection refused' error from that
> site.
> 
> 	- Andrew






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 18:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

hens <hens@...> writes:

> Instead of leveling the place and turn it into a monument, we should
> rebuild the Twin Towers. Maybe even a couple stories higher. That
> would be the /ultimate/ monument. And to those cowards it would say,
> Fuck You! Just come and try that again!

Guiliani has already said as much at a press conference today.

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Bob Ponce
DATE: Wed 13:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] Fwd: Emergency Assistance


>Subject: Emergency Assistance
>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:26:56 -0400
>Thread-Topic: Emergency Assistance
>Thread-Index: AcE7n4NqvFz4VSA7TjWI7Aw5IjaIBg==
>From: "Manny Bello" <manny@...>
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by siliconalley.net id 
>LAA20981
>
>For Immediate Release
>Contact:        Rich Schineller
>
>973-633-0888 ext 110
>
>rich@...
>
>
>3rd Millennium Offers Free Crisis Communications Assistance to Companies
>Impacted by Terrorist Attack on America
>
>Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - Wayne, NJ - 3rd Millennium Management, a
>communications, finance and business development consultancy, today
>offered free communications assistance to businesses impacted by
>yesterday's terrorist attack, including contacting employees and their
>families; developing crisis communications and contingency action plans;
>and reaching out to customers, clients and investors.
>
>"As President George W. Bush declared in his statement last night,
>'America will be open for business today.' We are ready, willing and
>able to do as much as we possibly can to make that statement a reality,"
>said Richard J. Schineller, 3rd Millennium's president. "We grieve for
>our family and friends lost as a result of yesterday's terrorist
>activity, and we will act decisively to use our skills to help negate
>the effect these cowardly acts were intended to have upon American
>society. If you need emergency help driving crisis communications to
>your employees, clients, vendors or investors, please call us so we may
>help."
>
>If you require emergency communications assistance, please call 3rd
>Millennium Management at 973-633-0888.
>
>3rd Millennium Management, LLC (www.3rd-mm.com) provides a synergistic
>approach to financing, communications and marketing. 3rd Millennium's
>clients benefit from a coordinated campaign to brand them in the public
>markets, maximizing awareness and accelerating business opportunities
>through a multi-disciplined approach leveraging 3rd Millennium's media,
>investor and industry relations expertise.






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 18:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

Bill Volk <bvolk@...> writes:

> I'm buying some stock today.  I have no idea what companies ... but I'll be
> dammed if these evil bastards are going to put us into a recession.

The London markets closed up today on the same principles by all
accounts - the traders were taking thin margins in buys, very wide on
sales (according to BBC Radio 5).

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------






FROM: Michael Pinto
DATE: Wed 10:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Greetings from NYC

It's strange, on an intellectual level I can understand what happened - but on an emotional level
I'm not sure if any of this has hit me yet. The most depressing thing are the photos of the people
jumping from the buildings, the rest looks like a Hollywood film to me. I live and work just a few
blocks north of the closed zone (14th street and below), and it's strange to look down there and
just see a cloud. The life on the streets is very odd, with very few cars and a mix of police and
family out for a stroll. 

As I would like to see things get back to normal, I hope to see the Fall return to NYC - and to
see as many of you here.

Michael



=====
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------------------------------------------------------------
Support My Reading Habit: http://www.fanboy.com 
Where I Work: http://www.vm.com
More About Me: http://www.michaelpinto.com  
My Favorite Music: http://www.thefall.org 
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FROM: Adam Fialkov
DATE: Wed 10:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Yahoo / Redcross

ANyone have a link to donate money to the red cross through Yahoo PayDirect?

AF






FROM: Serva
DATE: Wed 10:25
SUBJ: [wwwac] I'm fine, was on the runway at Newark

Peter:
Thank you so much for your first-person account of your experiences. It
brings into sharp focus the immense sorrow we all feel and helps to
dissipate the political squabbling and name calling on the list. While I
appreciate the freedom we all  have to express our thoughts, no matter what
the content, your letter brings it all back to the simple fact that we are
all profoundly sad, angry and at a loss how to best cope with these horrific
events.

I am a west-coaster but went to school at NYU. I had a part-time job at
Merrill Lynch for a time and remember fondly sitting by the "twin towers",
writing in my journal. I have friends back east who thankfully are alive and
well. I am grateful for that, but continue to be stunned, shocked, angry and
again, just plain sad.

I know we as a country will get through it. And I'm proud to be an American.
Your letter just helped to solidify those feelings.
Thank you.
Sandy Serva
Freelance Writer
serva@...
www.SandyServa.com
707.838.7834






FROM: Michael Pinto
DATE: Wed 10:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] Greetings from NYC (sorry about that)

Sorry about that - I keep hitting the wrong address button in Yahoo! mail, that last post was for
the Fall list. But I hope to see as many of you around too!!!

Michael

=====
M I C H A E L   J A M E S   P I N T O
------------------------------------------------------------
Support My Reading Habit: http://www.fanboy.com 
Where I Work: http://www.vm.com
More About Me: http://www.michaelpinto.com  
My Favorite Music: http://www.thefall.org 
------------------------------------------------------------

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FROM: lukebela dohnersilva
DATE: Wed 10:32
SUBJ: [wwwac] Lower Manhattan Accessibility

I live on Rivington also.
If you bring something with your address on it you can pass
by the cops.



--- Patrick Crowley <patcrowley@...> wrote:
> I hear no one can go below 14th street. Since I live on Rivington, I
> guess I
> can't go home.
> 
> Does anyone have experiences trying to make it back to the L.E.S. or
> East
> Village??!?
> 
> Thanks for any info...
> 
> Best,
> Patrick
> mokolabs>>
> http://mokolabs.com


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FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 12:32
SUBJ: [wwwac] just wondering...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dori <mailto:dori@...>
> 
> i've heard the word 'coward' used to describe the suicide bombers more
> than once (first by "president" bush, and here, as well)...
> 
> how is it that someone who can infiltrate federal systems, 
> hijack a plane
> and then DRIVE IT RIGHT INTO A HUGE BUILDING is referred to 
> as a 'coward'?

Funny you should ask:

http://slate.msn.com/code/chatterbox/chatterbox.asp?Show=9/11/2001&idMessage
=8268

As I posted in the Fray, there is a long philosophical history that connects
courage to virtue.

Read Paul Tillich's "The Courage To Be."  It examines the history of the
notion of courage and the evolution of anxiety into modern times.  The stuff
he writes about anxiety makes some sense of this whole thing, at least
insofar as it is understandable at all.  I'm not totally convinced by his
resolution, but I'm also not completely sure I understand it.  Just the
analysis of courage and anxiety is worth the read.

Scott






FROM: Jen Runne
DATE: Wed 13:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] ListMom Checking In...


hey all...bway.net, my dialup isp, is AFU--all lines down; very hard for me to
get in except thru Netzero which is also flakey.

thank you ALL for keeping the list as it should be and what it is--a resource
to the community.

G-d Bless New York.

Now, I need to go offline and go give blood.

I can most easily be reached at listhelp@... or
3moons@...

Thanks again; will check in on the list as well as I can--access very hard for
me.

---Jen Runne




--

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FROM: Jen Runne
DATE: Wed 13:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] Status of US Mail in NYC



Just heard on NY1--no mail south of 14th street, for any reason, or whatever. 

Banks are afu also.

----Jen



--

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FROM: Jen Runne
DATE: Wed 13:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT--yeah, my screed.



I agree with all other native New Yorkers on this board in feeling
OUTRAGE........THEY F**KED MY SKYLINE...one of my few joys in life these days
is knowing that I can go out my front door and look upon what is STILL the
greatest city on earth.....I don't know if I would gladly die for my COUNTRY
but I would for my CITY...

Oh yeah and my solution.....we have had synthehol cars and fuel for
years...the ability to make cars run (and lube them and service them) with
petro-free oils made from slaughterhouse waste, fry oil, wheat stems,
etc...see Slashdot for stories on this about a month ago.....

<rant>

In other words, F**K our dependency on oil.  We can put bread in our gas
tanks.  Let the Middle East eat its oil, and let them stay in the Dark Ages if
that's what they want.  

</rant>

--Jen




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FROM: Scott Rompala
DATE: Wed 13:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Yahoo / Redcross

http://paydirect.yahoo.com/PD/onePage/onePageRedCrossMoney-drv.pd

At 10:28 AM 9/12/01 -0700, Adam Fialkov wrote:
>ANyone have a link to donate money to the red cross through Yahoo PayDirect?
>
>AF






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 12:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] I'm fine, was on the runway at Newark

Peter's story makes sense of the crash in PA.  I've never been up there, so
I didn't realize that the towers would be visible from the Newark airport.
Maybe the pilot on that plane realized what his fate was and crashed the
plane before it got worse.

Scott






FROM: Jeremy Zevin
DATE: Wed 13:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] paypal / Redcross

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/relief-outside






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 13:51
SUBJ: [wwwac] war?


  <<I'm not going to try to argue the specifics of history because it is a
long and
twisted history that I don't think any of us can completely understand in
it's totality. >>

Which is just another way of saying that it's alright when Arabs Kill Jews
over 800 years, but when Jews defend themselves...then it's rather
complicated.


Ruben
-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Tom Simpson
DATE: Wed 13:53
SUBJ: [wwwac] Yahoo / Redcross

Amazon has one up too...  http://www.amazon.com/paypage/PKAXFNQH7EKCX

Tom Simpson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Rompala" <scott@...>
To: "Adam Fialkov" <afialkov@...>; <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: [wwwac] Yahoo / Redcross


> http://paydirect.yahoo.com/PD/onePage/onePageRedCrossMoney-drv.pd
>
> At 10:28 AM 9/12/01 -0700, Adam Fialkov wrote:
> >ANyone have a link to donate money to the red cross through Yahoo
PayDirect?
> >
> >AF






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 13:59
SUBJ: [wwwac] nyc subways

i can't listen to the news reports anymore for a while.  does anyone know 
the situation with the subways?  will they be running from brooklyn to 
manhattan tomorrow?

tia

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: Tom Simpson
DATE: Wed 14:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] nyc subways

Supposedly everything's running now except for the Q, C and 3 trains.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.htm has the full list of current
changes.

Tom Simpson


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duane Douglas" <ddouglas@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:59 PM
Subject: [wwwac] nyc subways


> i can't listen to the news reports anymore for a while.  does anyone know
> the situation with the subways?  will they be running from brooklyn to
> manhattan tomorrow?
>
> tia
>
> if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion
> && xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: Jen Runne
DATE: Wed 14:18
SUBJ: [wwwac] RE:  OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?



Okay, I was gonna stay out of this, but a few points to ponder:

1)  So you can't vote if you're not Jewish in Israel.  Why not attack all the
other all-Muslim theocracies in the Middle East then?

2)  It seems as if the Palestinians are being used by the said Muslim
theocracies to beat up on Israel and the US.  If they wanted to really help
the Palestinians then why don't some of those nations take them in?  

3)  Note that Jews and any one of any other faith for that matter have almost
NO civil rights in much of the Middle East.  

4)  Jim, it's not virulently racist to ask these questions.  New York City,
especially, is the one place on earth where immigrants from ANYWHERE can come
and try their hand at a decent living.  Looks like someone fouled the nest for
that chance for unknown thousands of future immigrants.

---Jen



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FROM: Matt
DATE: Wed 14:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] nyc subways

From the MTA Site: http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/emergency/emernyct.htm

Service on the following lines is normal:

                                      A (running on F line from W.4th to Jay
St.), B, D, F, G, L, Q (local and express), W, 4 (bypassing all stops
                                      between Union Sq/14th St. and Borough
Hall), 5 (bypassing all stops between Union Sq/14th St. and
                                      Borough Hall), 6 (normal to Bleecker St.,
returning to northbound service at Spring St.), 7, Grand Central
                                      Shuttle.

                                             C service is suspended.

                                             The following lines are operating
with diversions:

                                             1 (242nd St./Van Cortlandt to 34th
St.)

                                             2 (241st St./Wakefield to 34th St.
- Express)

                                             2 (Shuttle  Flatbush Av to
Atlantic Av)

                                             3 (148th St to 135th St,
connecting to 2 train)

                                             E (Parsons Archer to West 4th St.,
express in Manhattan, local in Queens)

                                             J (Parsons Archer to Essex St.)

                                             M (Metropolitan Av. to
Broadway/Myrtle)

                                             N (Astoria to 34th St. and
Stillwell to Court St.)

                                             R (95th St. to Court St.)


Duane Douglas wrote:

> i can't listen to the news reports anymore for a while.  does anyone know
> the situation with the subways?  will they be running from brooklyn to
> manhattan tomorrow?
>
> tia
>
> if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion
> && xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: Jason McCabe Calacanis
DATE: Wed 14:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] Fw: Office space

------=_NextPart_000_08B6_01C13B93.FC3BBFD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Office space offersfyi: ken seiff has space too




  =20
  Dear iHealthcareWeekly/WirelessReporter/Silicon Alley Daily/ Digital =
Coast Daily/VentureReporter.net subscribers,=20
  Our heartfelt wishes go out to each of you, who in one way or another =
have all been affected by yesterday's events.=20

  I'm sure by now you've received e-mails with emergency numbers, =
resource websites, and the like. I've just received an e-mail from Ken =
Seiff of BlueFly.com who is offering office space to anyone who has been =
displaced and needs a place to regroup.=20

  We also have office space, desks, and a wi-fi/802.11 network if any =
company out there needs a place to set up camp over the next couple of =
days or weeks (we have two 7,000-square-foot spaces). We are on 36th =
Street and Eighth Avenue. E-mail me at =
jason.calacanis@... or call me at 646-473-2201 if =
you need a desk to work at.=20

  Ken's contact info is below.=20

  Best,=20

  Jason=20

  editor & CEO, Silicon Alley Reporter & VentureReporter.net=20

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: "Ken Seiff" <Ken@...>=20
  To: "Jason McCabe Calacanis (E-mail)" =
<editor@...>=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:19 AM=20
  Subject: Office Space=20
   =20

  > Jason,=20
  >=20
  > We currently have about 9,000 s.f of temporarily vacant space which =
we are=20
  > donating to Companies who have been displaced.  If anyone needs =
space they=20
  > should call Sharon at 212-944-8000 ext 311 and leave a message or =
email her=20
  > at sharon@...
  >=20
  > Our office has spent the morning trying to think of ways we can =
provide some=20
  > relief.  I know they will be greatful for your willingness to =
broadcast this=20
  > message. We hope this is helpful in some small way.=20
  >=20
  > Best regards,=20
  >=20
  > Ken Seiff=20
  > Chief Executive Officer=20
  > Bluefly.com (NASDAQ SmallCap: BFLY)=20
  > 42 West 39th Street=20
  > New York, NY 10018=20
  >=20
  > tel:      212-944-8000 ext 225=20
  > fax:     212-869-6923=20
  > email:  ken@...


------=_NextPart_000_08B6_01C13B93.FC3BBFD0--






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 18:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Act sanely and locally

In article <B7C417C0.54C6%mark@...>,
	mark@... (Mark Frieser) writes:
> Good for you, and I hope he isn't treated too badly.  Just because he's
> Arabian doesn't mean people should make him a scapegoat.
> 

	http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB100025930590488834.htm

	- Andrew






FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 14:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

> I'm buying some stock today.  I have no idea what companies ... 
> but I'll be
> dammed if these evil bastards are going to put us into a recession.

Good for you!

Weren't we already in a recession?






FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 14:16
SUBJ: [wwwac] volunteering and donations update

------=_NextPart_000_0329_01C13B95.795E3EB0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I was listening to the radio, they said that Trinity Church on Broadway, =
is open and is taking donations of non perishable foods to nourish the =
workers. Can anyone confirm this? Additionally, I must stress for as =
many people to sign up as a volunteer on the American Red Cross website =
at http://www.redcross.org=20

Although they may not need you now, they may need people to relieve the =
volunteers they have working now.

MD

------=_NextPart_000_0329_01C13B95.795E3EB0--





FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 14:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] movie reel

link doesn't work



----- Original Message -----
From: gibbs <gibbs@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:38 PM
Subject: [wwwac] movie reel


We need some optimism.

Broadband users only: A Brief History of Silicon Alley, presents sponsorship
reel

http://mfile.akamai.com/5494/wmv/www.mamisi.com/media/rustik/siliconalley.as
x?obj=v1

Send all comments via wwwac






FROM: Eric Scuccimarra
DATE: Wed 14:18
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

Actually a recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of NEGATIVE GDP 
growth. Our GDP growth has slowed down significantly, but I don't think 
it's actually gone negative yet, definitely not for two quarters.

So while this may seem like a recession it's actually just a slowing growth 
of the economy.

At 02:14 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Amita Guha wrote:
> > I'm buying some stock today.  I have no idea what companies ...
> > but I'll be
> > dammed if these evil bastards are going to put us into a recession.
>
>Good for you!
>
>Weren't we already in a recession?






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 14:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

At 02:14 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Amita Guha wrote:
>Weren't we already in a recession?

we will be when Q3 ends on sept. 30

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: Oliver Demasis
DATE: Wed 14:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

	Although for NYC morale's sake, I agree that it would be good to recreate
our old skyline, I see a few flaws with this. First of all, the terrorists
already cost us possibly tens of thousands of lives, billions of dollars,
and countless lives forever disrupted. The terrorists won this round, no
matter if we rebuild the towers or not. I don't think putting them back will
have the "Fuck You!" impact to the terrorists that you would like it to
have. Second, it will be extremely difficult to find companies that will
want to lease space and risk the lives of their employees and their
companies by working in what would be basically a huge flashing bull's-eye
for future attacks.

	- Oliver

-----Original Message-----
From: hens <mailto:hens@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:44 PM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: Re: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


At 2:12 PM -0400 9/11/01, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
>Now what we should be immediately be planning to rebuild the buildings.
>
>We must remove the scare right now.


I agree.

Instead of leveling the place and turn it into a monument, we should
rebuild the Twin Towers. Maybe even a couple stories higher. That
would be the /ultimate/ monument. And to those cowards it would say,
Fuck You! Just come and try that again!






FROM: Kay T
DATE: Wed 11:30
SUBJ: [wwwac] volunteering and donations update

Working with United Way right now.

Perishable or non-perishable foods aren't really the
priority.  What's needed now is blood for the injured
(and you can call 1-800-GIVELIF or check
http://www.1010wins.com for info and locations) as
well as donations for the families and people which
will be sorely needed once the people and their
problems are identified.

For donations, you can go to:
https://www.uwnyc.com/epledge/sept11.cfm

100% of these donations will be given to the needs and
services for the victims (no administrative overhead)

Or you can send contributions to:
All contributions to The September 11th Fund should be
made out to: "United Way September 11th Fund" and
mailed to United Way of New York City, 2 Park Avenue,
NYC, NY  10016.

Hope everyone is safe and okay.




--- mike dizon <mdizon_2000@...> wrote:
> I was listening to the radio, they said that Trinity
> Church on Broadway, is open and is taking donations
> of non perishable foods to nourish the workers. Can
> anyone confirm this? Additionally, I must stress for
> as many people to sign up as a volunteer on the
> American Red Cross website at
> http://www.redcross.org 
> 
> Although they may not need you now, they may need
> people to relieve the volunteers they have working
> now.
> 
> MD
> 


__________________________________________________
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FROM: Karl  Long
DATE: Wed 14:16
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

--B_3083149016_1158981
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I don't think recession is not a forgone conclusion, here are some random
thoughts.
The economy really depends on peoples perceptions of what is happening
around them and how their country is coping.
If a common enemy or enemies can be identified we may see the benefit of a
galvanised nation and that would not be bad for the economy.
We are already seeing a group of nations forming a unified front against
terrorism, this unification in action of all democratic nations could have a
hugely beneficial effect on the world economy.
Bush has a reputation of being a separatist and I know the people in England
(and europe) were worried about that. I'm very proud of Tony Blair's
immediate position that this was not an attack on America but on all
democratic nations (yes I am a brit but I live in the US now).
We may think this is are darkest hour but I think we, as a country or world
community may surprise ourselves.
Later,
Karl



bfift2girl@... stated:

>> > I'm buying some stock today.  I have no idea what companies ...
>> > but I'll be
>> > dammed if these evil bastards are going to put us into a recession.
> 
> Good for you!
> 
> Weren't we already in a recession?


--B_3083149016_1158981--






FROM: Kay T
DATE: Wed 11:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT: NYC Emergency Counseling Center

Spread the word:

A drop-in, Emergency Counseling Center has been set up
at the Jewish Board of Family and Children?s Services,
120 57th Street, 4th Floor.

They will also provide psychiatrist medications for
those out of contact with their regular mental health
providers. 

Call Karen Norden at 582-9100, ext. 4707. E-Mail:
KNORDEN@...


__________________________________________________
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Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Jen Runne
DATE: Wed 14:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild, rebuild!!



Let them rebuild.  Let the new center be a beacon of information and
communication.....

The ONE silver lining of all of this horror, if there can be one:  One
complaint that is heard again and again is that in older US cities, there is
no room for new infrastructure.

Now there is....as well as pre-existing redundant backup systems already in
place in Brooklyn.

Let the new towers be at the vanguard of technology....global cellphones for
NYC and all the businesses who come here, as they will continue to.....and let
it also serve as a new and better HQ for national security...if nothing else
this is a wake-up call......

What's that line from "The Watchmen...."  "...it will be a new world, a better
world to die in........"

I still can't believe that the Towers are gone......but the new ones will
rise, and serve the city and the world even more....let those who died not
have done so in vain.....

Now I'm gonna go re-call the local blood ctr to see if they'll take more folks
yet...

---Jen





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FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 14:41
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 02:26 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Oliver Demasis wrote:
>         Although for NYC morale's sake, I agree that it would be good to 
> recreate
>our old skyline, I see a few flaws with this. First of all, the terrorists
>already cost us possibly tens of thousands of lives, billions of dollars,
>and countless lives forever disrupted. The terrorists won this round, no
>matter if we rebuild the towers or not. I don't think putting them back will
>have the "Fuck You!" impact to the terrorists that you would like it to
>have. Second, it will be extremely difficult to find companies that will
>want to lease space and risk the lives of their employees and their
>companies by working in what would be basically a huge flashing bull's-eye
>for future attacks.

i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get 
into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know 
how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be 
taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the 
three major area airports reopen.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: Kay T
DATE: Wed 11:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] More NYC Emergency Counseling Centers

More Emergency Counseling Centers:

These two agencies are providing services to the
public.

Ackerman Institute for the Family
149 East 78th Street
New York, NY  10021-0405
Mental Health
Re:  Family Support Groups

Ackerman Institute for the Family.  America's leading
Family Therapy Institute, in response to the World
Trade Center's tragedy is offering multiple family
support groups for those who have lost their loved
one.  All family members are welcome including
children of all ages.   There is no fee for this
service.

These groups will meet once a week for four weeks. 
Families are invited to contact the Ackerman Institute
at 212-879-4900 ext.120  Ask for Lisa or Miranda.

The groups will meet at the following times:

1st group:	Saturday, September 22, September 29,
October 6, October 13
		10:00am - 12:00pm
2nd group:	Saturday, September 22, September 29,
October 6, October 13
		1:00pm - 3:00pm
3rd group:	Sunday, September 23, September 30, October
7, October 14
		10:00 am - 12:00 pm
4th group:	Tuesday, September 25, October 2, October
9, October 16
		4:00 pm - 6:00 pm


Community Healthcare Network
184 Fifth Avenue - 5th Floor
New York, NY  10010
Mental Health

Dorothy Farley, Vice President of Social Services
Referred the following individuals who needs
counseling.
Director of Mental Health, Laura Weikotz 718-388-0390
Michael Sauca, Counselor-212-690-0300

I am still making phone calls to our mental health and
multi-services member agencies.
when I do receive more information, I will give an
update.


__________________________________________________
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FROM: Michael Pinto
DATE: Wed 11:47
SUBJ: [wwwac] Definition of Recession

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Scuccimarra <mailto:eric@...>
> 
> Actually a recession is defined as two consecutive quarters 
> of NEGATIVE GDP 
> growth. Our GDP growth has slowed down significantly, but I 
> don't think 
> it's actually gone negative yet, definitely not for two quarters.
> So while this may seem like a recession it's actually just a 
> slowing growth 
> of the economy.
> 

"A recession is when your friend is out of work, a depression is when you are out of work."
-- Harry Truman

Harry should know, because he lost his clothing business! That may be a good thing, because if he
started the next A|X we would have missed out on a great President. 

Yes two negative quarters are a recession, but that's according to economists - and economics is
more of an art than a science. But even a trained economist would tell you that unemployment is a
good measure of how things are going. So if you looked at the failure rate in our little industry
you would see things have been bad since the end of last year (thus my Truman quote above). 

Michael


=====
M I C H A E L   J A M E S   P I N T O
------------------------------------------------------------
Support My Reading Habit: http://www.fanboy.com 
Where I Work: http://www.vm.com
More About Me: http://www.michaelpinto.com  
My Favorite Music: http://www.thefall.org 
------------------------------------------------------------

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FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 14:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] I'm fine, was on the runway at Newark

> Peter's story makes sense of the crash in PA.  I've never been up
> there, so
> I didn't realize that the towers would be visible from the Newark airport.
> Maybe the pilot on that plane realized what his fate was and crashed the
> plane before it got worse.

You'd be surprised at how visible the Towers were. I was coming home
from college on the bus the day of the *first* bombing back in '93,
and when I heard about the bombing on my walkman radio, I looked and
was able to see the Towers about an hour outside NYC, way off on
the horizon.






FROM: Ron Guerin
DATE: Wed 14:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?

"They that give up essential liberty, to obtain a little
temporary safety, deserve neither liberty, nor safety."
  -- Benjamin Franklin






FROM: Beth
DATE: Wed 14:53
SUBJ: [wwwac] always two sides


A picture of Palestinian reactions that I hadn't seen yet:

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/tradecenter/091201.world.reax.html


I am up in the berkshires (aka middle-of-nowhere).  Even here, no one is
more than 2 degrees separated from someone still missing.  our hearts &
tears are with you in NY & DC.

-beth

____________________________

Beth Budwig, web primate
beth@...

http://wso.williams.edu/~ebudwig
____________________________






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 13:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack

I think the diminishing of the US' reputation in the world, the even split
in the last election, the lack of diplomatic activity in the Middle East and
the poor perception of our current president may have encouraged this
attack.

The terrorists will find that our status in the world has not diminished so
much that we won't find sympathy after an attack like this.  Also, that we
are not nearly as divided as it might appear.  One of the strengths of a
democracy is that we are far more powerful than the capabilities of a single
person, even if that person is our president.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karl Long <mailto:karl.long@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:17 PM
> To: Wwwac
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] Dealing with this attack
> 
> 
> I don't think recession is not a forgone conclusion, here are 
> some random
> thoughts.
> The economy really depends on peoples perceptions of what is happening
> around them and how their country is coping.
> If a common enemy or enemies can be identified we may see the 
> benefit of a
> galvanised nation and that would not be bad for the economy.
> We are already seeing a group of nations forming a unified 
> front against
> terrorism, this unification in action of all democratic 
> nations could have a
> hugely beneficial effect on the world economy.
> Bush has a reputation of being a separatist and I know the 
> people in England
> (and europe) were worried about that. I'm very proud of Tony Blair's
> immediate position that this was not an attack on America but on all
> democratic nations (yes I am a brit but I live in the US now).
> We may think this is are darkest hour but I think we, as a 
> country or world
> community may surprise ourselves.
> Later,
> Karl
> 
> 
> 
> bfift2girl@... stated:
> 
> >> > I'm buying some stock today.  I have no idea what companies ...
> >> > but I'll be
> >> > dammed if these evil bastards are going to put us into a 
> recession.
> > 
> > Good for you!
> > 
> > Weren't we already in a recession?






FROM: Kevin Lee
DATE: Wed 14:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


I can't see doing an exact replica of the WTC, but perhaps the city will 
propose a structure that is even more spectacular.  Perhaps this is NYC's 
opportunity to once again have the tallest building in the world.

At 02:26 PM 9/12/2001, Oliver Demasis wrote:
>         Although for NYC morale's sake, I agree that it would be good to 
> recreate
>our old skyline, I see a few flaws with this. First of all, the terrorists
>already cost us possibly tens of thousands of lives, billions of dollars,
>and countless lives forever disrupted. The terrorists won this round, no
>matter if we rebuild the towers or not. I don't think putting them back will
>have the "Fuck You!" impact to the terrorists that you would like it to
>have. Second, it will be extremely difficult to find companies that will
>want to lease space and risk the lives of their employees and their
>companies by working in what would be basically a huge flashing bull's-eye
>for future attacks.
>
>         - Oliver
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: hens <mailto:hens@...>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:44 PM
>To: wwwac@...
>Subject: Re: [wwwac] Rebuild then now
>
>
>At 2:12 PM -0400 9/11/01, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
> >Now what we should be immediately be planning to rebuild the buildings.
> >
> >We must remove the scare right now.
>
>
>I agree.
>
>Instead of leveling the place and turn it into a monument, we should
>rebuild the Twin Towers. Maybe even a couple stories higher. That
>would be the /ultimate/ monument. And to those cowards it would say,
>Fuck You! Just come and try that again!

Kevin Lee
Outsource your interactive projects to our team and we become your team.
TeamINTERACT
--------------------- NY office ----------------------------
352 7th Ave 3rd Floor     212-402-7767 NYC Fax:212-402-7768
New York, NY 10001              http://www.teaminteract.com
--------------------- NJ office ----------------------------
1100 Cornwall Rd Suite 5       Tel: 732-940-6550
Monmouth Junction, NJ 08852    Fax: 732-940-6540
--
Web, CD-ROM, KIOSKS, Sales Presentations, Tradeshow, Intranets.
http://www.did-it.com/ Boost search engine traffic Guaranteed!
http://www.kevinlee.net/ About me, in case you are curious.






FROM: Kathy Forer
DATE: Wed 14:18
SUBJ: [wwwac] our beloved city

They don't want my blood type, so what else can I do?

At some point, though still enmeshed with fatalism and fear, retreat, 
entrapment, I assume I'll be driving back to New Jersey. If anyone 
needs a ride, please ask. Until then, what? just go outside.






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 15:12
SUBJ: [wwwac] Blood types they still need?

I'm O Positive - the Universal donor. Do they still need more blood? I'm 
hearing conflicting reports.

-Peter


Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com
You know, Rick, I have many a friend in Casablanca, but somehow, just 
because you despise me, you are the only one I trust.
- Ugarte (Peter Lorre), Casablanca






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 15:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

I think it should be built exactly the same but with one extra floor.

On 12-09-2001 14:56, "Kevin Lee" <klee@...> wrote:

> 
> I can't see doing an exact replica of the WTC, but perhaps the city will
> propose a structure that is even more spectacular.  Perhaps this is NYC's
> opportunity to once again have the tallest building in the world.
> 
> At 02:26 PM 9/12/2001, Oliver Demasis wrote:
>>         Although for NYC morale's sake, I agree that it would be good to
>> recreate
>> our old skyline, I see a few flaws with this. First of all, the terrorists
>> already cost us possibly tens of thousands of lives, billions of dollars,
>> and countless lives forever disrupted. The terrorists won this round, no
>> matter if we rebuild the towers or not. I don't think putting them back will
>> have the "Fuck You!" impact to the terrorists that you would like it to
>> have. Second, it will be extremely difficult to find companies that will
>> want to lease space and risk the lives of their employees and their
>> companies by working in what would be basically a huge flashing bull's-eye
>> for future attacks.
>> 
>>         - Oliver
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: hens <mailto:hens@...>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:44 PM
>> To: wwwac@...
>> Subject: Re: [wwwac] Rebuild then now
>> 
>> 
>> At 2:12 PM -0400 9/11/01, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
>>> Now what we should be immediately be planning to rebuild the buildings.
>>> 
>>> We must remove the scare right now.
>> 
>> 
>> I agree.
>> 
>> Instead of leveling the place and turn it into a monument, we should
>> rebuild the Twin Towers. Maybe even a couple stories higher. That
>> would be the /ultimate/ monument. And to those cowards it would say,
>> Fuck You! Just come and try that again!
> 
> Kevin Lee
> Outsource your interactive projects to our team and we become your team.
> TeamINTERACT
> --------------------- NY office ----------------------------
> 352 7th Ave 3rd Floor     212-402-7767 NYC Fax:212-402-7768
> New York, NY 10001              http://www.teaminteract.com
> --------------------- NJ office ----------------------------
> 1100 Cornwall Rd Suite 5       Tel: 732-940-6550
> Monmouth Junction, NJ 08852    Fax: 732-940-6540
> --
> Web, CD-ROM, KIOSKS, Sales Presentations, Tradeshow, Intranets.
> http://www.did-it.com/ Boost search engine traffic Guaranteed!
> http://www.kevinlee.net/ About me, in case you are curious.






FROM: Mikki Monkolchayut
DATE: Wed 15:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

I want to give blood, am O+, and that is in high demand.
Traveled a lot so I maybe refused, before I stand on a long line, can 
someone tell me who would be refused.

Drug users
tatoos,
travelers, esp. 3rd world nations and mad cow infected areas
over 125lbs

so who is left to give blood???

M

At 8:00 PM -0400 9/11/01, Joanna Wissinger wrote:
>At 2:02 PM -0400 9/11/01, Hendrick Bosse wrote:
>>Anyone knows where to give blood exept for the locations mentioned in
>>NYT (except Red Cross, because I am European and they refuse my donation
>>because of possible Mad Cow Disease......makes you feel great after 5
>>years in the US)
>
>I got refused also, too much time spent in the UK.
>--
>
>
>
>
>Joanna Wissinger
>c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
>content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
>what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq


-- 
Mikki Monkolchayut
http://www.msbuddhafly.com
http://www.thai-in.com






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 15:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Funny Eudora warning

For some reason, my Eudora Inbox got grabled, so the program offered to
Rebuild the table of contents. I declined, clicking on "Use old". Then I
got this:

	http://www.monospace.com/rebuild.html

Then I just, er, complied ^_^



-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Matt
DATE: Wed 15:18
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

over 125 lbs?

Mikki Monkolchayut wrote:

> I want to give blood, am O+, and that is in high demand.
> Traveled a lot so I maybe refused, before I stand on a long line, can
> someone tell me who would be refused.
>
> Drug users
> tatoos,
> travelers, esp. 3rd world nations and mad cow infected areas
> over 125lbs
>
> so who is left to give blood???
>
> M
>
> At 8:00 PM -0400 9/11/01, Joanna Wissinger wrote:
> >At 2:02 PM -0400 9/11/01, Hendrick Bosse wrote:
> >>Anyone knows where to give blood exept for the locations mentioned in
> >>NYT (except Red Cross, because I am European and they refuse my donation
> >>because of possible Mad Cow Disease......makes you feel great after 5
> >>years in the US)
> >
> >I got refused also, too much time spent in the UK.
> >--
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Joanna Wissinger
> >c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
> >content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
> >what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq
>
> --
> Mikki Monkolchayut
> http://www.msbuddhafly.com
> http://www.thai-in.com






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 19:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
	ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
> 
> i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get 
> into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know 
> how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be 
> taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the 
> three major area airports reopen.

Unless you expect either:

	1.	JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
	2.	Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
		by an armed escort, or
	3.	SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
		24/7 alert

then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.

That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.

	- Andrew






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 15:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] NY Red Cross Needs IT HELP!

--=====================_72208483==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

 > Dear Susan,
 >
 > Jason passed on your offer to help to me. Please read the email below
 > detailing the needed services and products and let me know if you or
 > anyone you know can provide these resources. Additionally, they have a
 > HUGE NEED for MIcrosoft and Citrix consultants.
 >
 > Thanks in advance!
 >
 > Dorothy
 >
 > Dear Friends and Colleagues,
 > We have just returned from the NY American Red Cross where we learned of
 > a DIRE NEED they have for technology equipment and services. The field
 > workers and sites have little, if any, means of communications and the
 > central office is processing way too much on completely paper systems.
 > Your help in acquiring these resources would be greatly appreciated.
 > This is an IMMEDIATE need. The Red Cross is contacting their vendors to
 > ask for help as well.
 > THE ATTACHED EMAIL FROM JOE LEO OF THE RED CROSS DETAILS THE NEEDED
 > TECHNOLOGY PRODUCTS AND SERVICES. Joe can be contacted at 212-875-2409
 > or jleo@... <mailto:jleo@...>
 > Thank you in advance for you attention to this matter. Please feel free
 > to contact me if you have any questions or if you have any problems
 > reaching Joe. We will be happy to take your donation information
 > directly to him.
 > My cell is working today at 917.549.7037
 > Warm Regards,
 > Dorothy Webman, D.S.W.
 > President/CEO
 > Webman Associates
 >
 > dwebman@...
 >
 > 4 Brattle Street, Suite 207
 > Cambridge, MA 02138
 > (617) 864-6769 [Telephone]
 > (617) 492-3673 [Facsimile]
 >
 > New York Office:
 > 1650 Broadway, Suite 701
 > New York, NY 10019
 > (212) 459-0944 [Telephone]
 > (212) 586-4306 [Facsimile]
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Leo, Joseph <mailto:leoj@...>
 > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:50 AM
 > To: 'dwebman@...
 > Subject: Equipment Needs
 >
 > Good morning Dorothy,
 > the list of equipment that we need for our field workers and expanded
 > Emergency Operations Centers. Thanks for your generous assistance! Any
 > and
 > all donations would be greatly appreciated.
 > 40 IBM computers and laptops (with NICs)
 > Monitors (With Desktops)
 > ANY STORAGE SOLUTIONS
 > 25 10/100 hubs (8+ Ports)
 > 100 Cat5 cables (All lengths)
 > 50 Power strips
 > Any IBM-compatible memory
 > Any 3Com Wireless NIC cards and LAN products
 > 30 Desktop-size UPSs
 > 15 Laserjet printers (HP 1100 or faster) and printer supplies
 > 20 External Zip Drives and Disks
 > Any diskettes and R/W CDs
 > 5 External CD burners
 > 5 Duplex Document Scanners
 > 25 Extension Cords
 > Any Colored tie wraps
 > Any Velcro cable wraps
 > 50 Citrix client licenses
 > 12 PCMCIA LAN cards for IBM P20 Thinkpads (preferably 3Com) (In addition
 > to
 > those in the new PCs)
 > 50 MS-Exchange CALs
 > 35 MS-SQL CALs
 > 50 MS-Office Professional licenses
 > 15 PC Anywhere licenses
 > DSL Lines
 > PDAs with wireless capacity AND SERVICE
 > NEXTEL cell phones and service
 > Joe Leo
 > Assistant Director, Business Applications
 > Information Technology
 > American Red Cross in Greater New York
 > 150 Amsterdam Avenue
 > New York, NY 10023
 > 212-875-2409
 > jleo@... <mailto:jleo@...>
 >
 > ########################################################################
 >
--
~Andrea~



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com
You know, Rick, I have many a friend in Casablanca, but somehow, just 
because you despise me, you are the only one I trust.
- Ugarte (Peter Lorre), Casablanca

--=====================_72208483==_.ALT--






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 19:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] I'm fine, was on the runway at Newark

In article <LOBBIEBNHIAFIABMMPJHCEPEECAA.bfift2girl@...>,
	bfift2girl@... ("Amita Guha") writes:
>> Peter's story makes sense of the crash in PA.  I've never been up
>> there, so
>> I didn't realize that the towers would be visible from the Newark airport.
>> Maybe the pilot on that plane realized what his fate was and crashed the
>> plane before it got worse.
> 
> You'd be surprised at how visible the Towers were. 

From the air, even at the low altitudes in which I fly, WTC was 
visible from over much of northern NJ and downstate NY on a 
clear day.

I'd be more specific, except I never paid much attention.  It
was just "part of the landscape".

	- Andrew






FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 12:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

i think all of nostradamus' material is highly subject to 
interpretation for a couple of reasons:

1. he wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote. 
there's so much material, one can be a bit selective as to which 
allegedly applies.

2. the obscurity of the verse.

still, it's intriguing to look at, and i'm always curious when a 
passage comes up to review that some one thinks might fit.

dg






FROM: Eric Scuccimarra
DATE: Wed 15:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] Funny Eudora warning

Messages like these are my favorite thing about Eudora.

At 03:15 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, hens wrote:
>For some reason, my Eudora Inbox got grabled, so the program offered to
>Rebuild the table of contents. I declined, clicking on "Use old". Then I
>got this:
>
>         http://www.monospace.com/rebuild.html
>
>Then I just, er, complied ^_^
>
>
>
>--
>                          <http://www.monospace.com>
>                          You are visitor number one.






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 15:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

If we had an anti-aircraft battery on Governor's island or perhaps a ship in
the water, it should be able to deal with the threat.


On 12-09-2001 15:19, "Andrew Gideon" <ag797@...> wrote:

> In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
> ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
>> 
>> i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get
>> into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know
>> how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be
>> taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
>> three major area airports reopen.
> 
> Unless you expect either:
> 
> 1.    JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
> 2.    Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
> by an armed escort, or
> 3.    SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
> 24/7 alert
> 
> then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
> approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
> something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
> 
> That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.
> 
> - Andrew






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 14:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 2:26 PM -0400 9/12/01, Oliver Demasis wrote:
>	Although for NYC morale's sake, I agree that it would be good 
>to recreate
>our old skyline, I see a few flaws with this. First of all, the terrorists
>already cost us possibly tens of thousands of lives, billions of dollars,
>and countless lives forever disrupted. The terrorists won this round, no
>matter if we rebuild the towers or not. I don't think putting them back will
>have the "Fuck You!" impact to the terrorists that you would like it to
>have. Second, it will be extremely difficult to find companies that will
>want to lease space and risk the lives of their employees and their
>companies by working in what would be basically a huge flashing bull's-eye
>for future attacks.

But that's exactly the point. Terorrist want to destabilize a society 
through fear. For morale's sake, we should rebuild the darn towers. 
And while the prospect of working in high profile skyscrapers like 
that may not appeal to many people right now, simply leveling the 
place and be forever sad about it, would be exactly what these 
terrorists hoped to achieve.

We may never be able to "hunt down and punish" those responsible, but 
we can stand up an be proud and defy these cowardly bastards by 
rebuilding the towers.






FROM: Matt
DATE: Wed 15:29
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

Ultimately, there's just too much risk in a hair-trigger policy regarding
passenger flights, so the security will have to be increased on the pre-flight
end of it rather than once the plane is in the air. The reality is that
American airport security is pathetic compared to what you find in Western
Europe, and certainly in the Middle East. I just went to Kyrgyzstan this summer
and even there the X-ray machines were more high-tech than what you see in most
American airports.

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
>         ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
> >
> > i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get
> > into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know
> > how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be
> > taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
> > three major area airports reopen.
>
> Unless you expect either:
>
>         1.      JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
>         2.      Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
>                 by an armed escort, or
>         3.      SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
>                 24/7 alert
>
> then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
> approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
> something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
>
> That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.
>
>         - Andrew






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 15:29
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

I remember living in Pentagon City, with a view of the Pentagon from my 
window a few years ago. I remember people telling me that they deliberately 
had missile batteries lined up in front of the Pentagon for just such an 
attack.

I'm guessing this isn't the case in DC?

-Peter

At 07:19 PM 9/12/01 +0000, you wrote:
> > i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get
> > into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know
> > how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be
> > taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
> > three major area airports reopen.
>
>Unless you expect either:
>
>         1.      JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
>         2.      Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
>                 by an armed escort, or
>         3.      SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
>                 24/7 alert
>
>then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
>approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
>something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
>
>That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 19:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] Flight paths available

http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/spSec/wtcst.jsp

Watching AAL11 and UAL175 is interesting.  The AAL
flight was likely navigating by following the Hudson, 
based upon some small course changes.

The UAL flight is scarier.  They were likely in 
view of the first impact (no altitude information
is provided, but it's likely given the location).
It looks like they were awaiting the first impact, 
at which point they turned on course for WTC
themselves.

Until they turned for the WTC, it looked like
they were orbiting at a relatively fixed distance
from WTC (easy to do with gear on even little 
aircraft).

	- Andrew






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 19:38
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <B7C52F08.570D%mark@...>,
	mark@... (Mark Frieser) writes:
> If we had an anti-aircraft battery on Governor's island or perhaps a ship in
> the water, it should be able to deal with the threat.

That's the possibility I cite as #3 (although at least two sites
are required to cover all three airports).  However, the staff
would need to be ready and able to fire on *very* short notice,
and they'd need to maintain that readiness state 24/7 forever.

This is a solvable problem (perhaps multiple sites
with overlapping schedules and coverage regions).  But
this also includes the possibility of a false positive
(with unfortunate results).

I'm not really sure I see this being done.  

	- Andrew






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 15:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


Yes, and thee World should agree to not build a taller building out of
memory of the original's and the lives lost.  And the Buildings should be
under permanent military gaurd in memory of the people who lost their
lives, like a living tomb of the unknown soldier.


Ruben
___________________________________-
On 2001.09.12 14:56:06 -0400 Kevin Lee wrote:

<<I can't see doing an exact replica of the WTC, but perhaps the city will 
propose a structure that is even more spectacular.  Perhaps this is NYC's 
opportunity to once again have the tallest building in the world.>>
-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 15:38
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

On 9/12/01 at 12:22 PM -0700, David Glober wrote:

> still, it's intriguing to look at, and i'm always curious when a
> passage comes up to review that some one thinks might fit.

Totally agree. Nostradamus was a rambling idiot, whose many, many verses
can be explained in any which way you prefer.

That said, I haven't heard from any Bible thumpers yet pointing out the
passage in the Book of revelations that predicted this, but I /predict/
there will be many such idiots.

All this nonsense does is reinforce people's tendency to avoid dealing with
reality: This was not an act of God. This was an act of humans against
other humans.


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 19:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

In article <v04220806b7c3f4386858@...>,
	wwwac@... ("Kim B. Foglia") writes:
> The American Red Cross has put a call out for blood donation.

880 is reporting that area banks are full.

	- Andrew






FROM: Mikki Monkolchayut
DATE: Wed 15:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

http://www.redcross.org/services/biomed/blood/learn/eligibl.html
Any one else having problems getting on this site.
It just hangs for me.

Yeah, there is a min weight.  115, 120 or 125???
Last time I got refused cause I didn't weigh enough.

A pint is a pint from a 100lb woman or a 200lb man.

At 3:18 PM -0400 9/12/01, Matt wrote:
>over 125 lbs?
>
>Mikki Monkolchayut wrote:
>
>>  I want to give blood, am O+, and that is in high demand.
>>  Traveled a lot so I maybe refused, before I stand on a long line, can
>>  someone tell me who would be refused.
>>
>>  Drug users
>>  tatoos,
>>  travelers, esp. 3rd world nations and mad cow infected areas
>>  over 125lbs
>>
>>  so who is left to give blood???
>>
>>  M
>>
>>  At 8:00 PM -0400 9/11/01, Joanna Wissinger wrote:
>>  >At 2:02 PM -0400 9/11/01, Hendrick Bosse wrote:
>>  >>Anyone knows where to give blood exept for the locations mentioned in
>>  >>NYT (except Red Cross, because I am European and they refuse my donation
>>  >>because of possible Mad Cow Disease......makes you feel great after 5
>>  >>years in the US)
>>  >
>>  >I got refused also, too much time spent in the UK.
>>  >--
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Joanna Wissinger
>>  >c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
>>  >content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
>>  >what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq


-- 
Mikki Monkolchayut
http://www.msbuddhafly.com
http://www.thai-in.com






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 15:41
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


<<
	2.	Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
		by an armed escort, or
	3.	SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
		24/7 alert
>>

I expect that the Air Space of NYC and other major cities to be under
military control -ANYWAY.

What the hell is a Coast Guard, and Air Force.  This is not a strange idea.

Ruben

then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.

That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.

	- Andrew


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 15:43
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

No

This is not true.  Any unauthorized air craft in the skies of Manhattan has
ALWAYS been eligable to be shot down without reason.  And their is every
reason to shoot down anythign in Manhattan Air Space which is too low
without permission, and no reason to ever not shoot it down.


Ruben
___________________________________-  
On 2001.09.12 15:29:59 -0400 Matt wrote:
Ultimately, there's just too much risk in a hair-trigger policy regarding
passenger flights, so the security will have to be increased on the
pre-flight
end of it rather than once the plane is in the air. The reality is that
American airport security is pathetic compared to what you find in Western
Europe, and certainly in the Middle East. I just went to Kyrgyzstan this
summer
and even there the X-ray machines were more high-tech than what you see in
most
American airports.

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
>         ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
> >
> > i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to
get
> > into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't
know
> > how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will
be
> > taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
> > three major area airports reopen.
>
> Unless you expect either:
>
>         1.      JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
>         2.      Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
>                 by an armed escort, or
>         3.      SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
>                 24/7 alert
>
> then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
> approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
> something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
>
> That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.
>
>         - Andrew


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Jason Wiener
DATE: Wed 15:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] Support and well wishes for Americans of Arab heritage


As a religious Jew and a Zionist I spent all morning yesterday praying it
was not a palestinian attack, which would seem to make any peace in Israel
an impossibility within our lifetimes. I was heartbroken to hear the
supposed claiming of responsibility by a Palestinian group, now denied,
and saddened again to discover that the perpetrators were of some Arabian
nationality, as seems to be indicated by cell phone accounts. It appears
we will be at war with an Arabian country soon, and as responsible
citizens we must not allow the anger we feel to spill out against our
neighbors.

America has a history of ill-treating our brothers and sisters who
committed no crime other than to be descended from a country with which
we happen to be at war, from Japanese camps in WWII to the events Dori
describes below. I solute those who yesterday said they visited
local Arab business owners and friends and offered support. After
confirming that all my friends and family were safe, I spent the evening
calling friends of Arab heritage. Many of them now fear they are targets
for retaliation.

In the hopes that the coming months do not see a repeat of such
national domestic abuse, I urge you all to be mindful of the fear your
honest, innocent neighbors may now be feeling, and to offer support.

Best wishes to all,
Jas

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, dori wrote:

> i've heard the word 'coward' used to describe the suicide bombers more
> than once (first by "president" bush, and here, as well)...
>
> how is it that someone who can infiltrate federal systems, hijack a plane
> and then DRIVE IT RIGHT INTO A HUGE BUILDING is referred to as a 'coward'?
>
> just curious - i realize it's off-topic and pointless...
>
> on another note, my website has gone nuts in the past two days, and
> because of that i've received a few militant anti-arab, heavily
> pro-zionist emails - some of them from people i thought were friends, who
> obviously didn't stop to think about the fact that i'm
> arab...  god...  one even stated that any support of the palestinian cause
> was supporting pure terrorism...  hmmm...  makes me glad the Native
> Americans are, and have remained, pacifists.
>
> during the gulf war, my father caught a lot of shit for the fact that he
> is arab...  stupid shit, like being searched more heavily in the airports,
> being called names on the street, etc...  apparently, deli owners are
> lying about their heritage here...
>
> one of the things we need to learn from all of this is that the political
> views of the people don't reflect in any sense the political views of
> their home countries' governments - and that we have to be a little more
> tolerant of that fact, ESPECIALLY in america...
>
> dori
>
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:33:30 EDT
> To: innovator@... wwwac@...
> From: Erinpbennett@...
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] war?
> Message-ID: <e5.c09cbc7.28d0da4a@...>
>
> you don't look around and say "oh, well, so what if those roaches just
> tore
> open my loaf of Wonder Bread" you spray them with Raid. You kill them. You
> make them suffer.
>
> and right now, i love roaches compared to these cowardly suicidal
> bastards.
>
> -erin
> http://www.gigglechick.com/erin/blog/
> the perfect combo of estrogen and a sense of humor






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 15:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] RE:  OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?



<<1)  So you can't vote if you're not Jewish in Israel.  Why not attack all
the
other all-Muslim theocracies in the Middle East then?>>

But non-Jews Do vote.....



___________________________________________________________
2)  It seems as if the Palestinians are being used by the said Muslim
theocracies to beat up on Israel and the US.  If they wanted to really help
the Palestinians then why don't some of those nations take them in?  

3)  Note that Jews and any one of any other faith for that matter have
almost
NO civil rights in much of the Middle East.  

4)  Jim, it's not virulently racist to ask these questions.  New York City,
especially, is the one place on earth where immigrants from ANYWHERE can
come
and try their hand at a decent living.  Looks like someone fouled the nest
for
that chance for unknown thousands of future immigrants.

---Jen



--

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
       V A N G U A R D   M E D I A   C O R P O R A T I O N
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ http://www.vm.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 15:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] Flight paths available

On 9/12/01 at 7:31 PM +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:

> http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/spSec/wtcst.jsp
[...]
> Until they turned for the WTC, it looked like
> they were orbiting at a relatively fixed distance
> from WTC (easy to do with gear on even little
> aircraft).

I know they're looking at jet training centers across the country, but it's
just as easy to pick up a computer flight simulation game for a couple of
bucks, with realistic renditions of the controls of all aircraft involved.

Having played some of those myself, once you're up in the air, it's so easy
it's almost boring. And these guys never had to deal with properly landing.


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 15:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

On 9/12/01 at 7:38 PM +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:

> In article <B7C52F08.570D%mark@...>,
> 	mark@... (Mark Frieser) writes:
>> If we had an anti-aircraft battery on Governor's island or perhaps a ship in
>> the water, it should be able to deal with the threat.
>
[...]
>
> I'm not really sure I see this being done.

What's more likely is that from now on, there'll be armed guards on every
flight in this country.



-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Alon Koppel
DATE: Wed 15:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

I agree, it is highly unlikely New York City airspace will ever be protected
but instead of having high-tech plans of securing the air-zone, missile
defense, etc. that probably will be useless is to make sure the weakest
links are secured. 

In this case this will be the cockpit. On some airlines (El-Al for one) no
one can just walk in and take over the pilot's seat because they are locked
behind two metal doors that will only be opened from the inside. this is the
simplest, most effective thing they can start doing right now on all planes.
I am not saying this will take down all terrorist attempts, but at least
it's a start that doesn't even disturb anyone's privacy.

and in regard to re-building, perhaps they should build one and leave the
rest of the horrible looking metal pieces as a memorial next to it.

peace.

Alon.



on 9/12/01 3:19 PM, Andrew Gideon at ag797@... wrote:

> In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
> ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
>> 
>> i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get
>> into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know
>> how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be
>> taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
>> three major area airports reopen.
> 
> Unless you expect either:
> 
> 1.    JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
> 2.    Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
> by an armed escort, or
> 3.    SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
> 24/7 alert
> 
> then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
> approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
> something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
> 
> That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.
> 
> - Andrew






FROM: gibbs
DATE: Wed 15:43
SUBJ: [wwwac] movie, reel - http://mfile.akamai.com/5494/wmv/www.mamisi.com/media/rustik/siliconalley.asx?obj=v1

------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C13BA1.ADA91F80
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for the comment Mike

Link works, just needs to be all on the same syntax line.  Try this...

http://mfile.akamai.com/5494/wmv/www.mamisi.com/media/rustik/siliconalley=
.asx?obj=3Dv1

If needed, check out the web site, www.historyofsiliconalley.com=20

There is an entire site dedicated.



G Gibbs
Documentary Filming, Producing
A Brief History of Silicon Alley
gibbs@...




------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C13BA1.ADA91F80--






FROM: David Choi
DATE: Wed 15:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

air marshalls as they called it... like cops on a subway train...

-----Original Message-----
From: hens <mailto:hens@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:48 PM
To: Andrew Gideon; wwwac@...
Subject: Re: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


On 9/12/01 at 7:38 PM +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:

> In article <B7C52F08.570D%mark@...>,
> 	mark@... (Mark Frieser) writes:
>> If we had an anti-aircraft battery on Governor's island or perhaps a
ship in
>> the water, it should be able to deal with the threat.
>
[...]
>
> I'm not really sure I see this being done.

What's more likely is that from now on, there'll be armed guards on
every
flight in this country.



--=20
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Stephen Gilliard
DATE: Wed 12:59
SUBJ: [wwwac] Wait to donate blood

Unless you have O- blood, please wait until next week
to donate blood. 

With the risk of military action, injuries during
recovery and multiple operations, there is no need to
run to give blood at the moment. The time to give
blood is next week, when people have less on their
minds, but the need is still high.

Check with the websites, check by phone, but right
now, the important thing is that the cops, national
guard and fire move unimpeded downtown. The need for
blood will remain for weeks after this. Wait until
next week to donate blood unless the Red Cross says
something different. 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 14:58
SUBJ: [wwwac] A pilot (and almost-friend) was near the second attack


Course his sentiments about killing an arab aren't too cool (his home
page).

On 12 Sep 2001, Andrew Gideon wrote:

> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=3b9e634d%40news2.lightlink.com
> 
> 	- Andrew






FROM: McKeever, Marty
DATE: Wed 15:58
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

If you look at the aftermath of every other time a commercial passenger jet
has been shot down by military hardware (i can think of 3 offhand), it's
easy to see that it just aint gonna happen.  Not as a matter of policy
anyway.  It's one heck of a judgement call (lets kill 200+ offcourse
civilians 'just to be on the safe side').


-----Original Message-----
From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions <mailto:ruben@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:44 PM
To: mspiegler@...
Cc: wwwac
Subject: Re: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


No

This is not true.  Any unauthorized air craft in the skies of Manhattan has
ALWAYS been eligable to be shot down without reason.  And their is every
reason to shoot down anythign in Manhattan Air Space which is too low
without permission, and no reason to ever not shoot it down.


Ruben
___________________________________-  
On 2001.09.12 15:29:59 -0400 Matt wrote:
Ultimately, there's just too much risk in a hair-trigger policy regarding
passenger flights, so the security will have to be increased on the
pre-flight
end of it rather than once the plane is in the air. The reality is that
American airport security is pathetic compared to what you find in Western
Europe, and certainly in the Middle East. I just went to Kyrgyzstan this
summer
and even there the X-ray machines were more high-tech than what you see in
most
American airports.

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
>         ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
> >
> > i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to
get
> > into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't
know
> > how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will
be
> > taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
> > three major area airports reopen.
>
> Unless you expect either:
>
>         1.      JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
>         2.      Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
>                 by an armed escort, or
>         3.      SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
>                 24/7 alert
>
> then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
> approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
> something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
>
> That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.
>
>         - Andrew


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <20010912154134.C21093@...>,
	ruben@... (Brooklyn Linux Solutions) writes:
> 
> <<
> 	2.	Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
> 		by an armed escort, or
> 	3.	SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
> 		24/7 alert
>>>
> 
> I expect that the Air Space of NYC and other major cities to be under
> military control -ANYWAY.

In your mind, what do you consider "military control"?  Do you
expect military staffers to staff ATC?  That would accomplish nothing.
Do you expect to established a prohibited, as referenced in FAR 
91.133 (which you know about, given your expertise in the area)?
Given the proximity of the three airports, this accomplishes
nothing without my possibilities #2 or #3, or possibility #1
which eliminates these airports.

> What the hell is a Coast Guard, and Air Force.  This is not a strange idea.

The warning areas and ADIZ surrounding the US (about which you
already know) are far larger than the space between NYC and the
three airports.

	- Andrew






FROM: Kevin Lee
DATE: Wed 15:49
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


Remember, in this case, the 2 aircraft that hit the WTC came from 
Boston.  Logistically, its easier to wait until an aircraft is airborne and 
has been for a few minutes before hijacking it.

As with computer security, airport security can not be perfect, but there 
is obviously room for significant improvement.

As with any increases in security we will all need to adapt.  Many are 
saying that carry on baggage may be the first to go.

At 03:19 PM 9/12/2001, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
>         ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
> >
> > i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get
> > into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know
> > how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be
> > taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
> > three major area airports reopen.
>
>Unless you expect either:
>
>         1.      JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
>         2.      Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
>                 by an armed escort, or
>         3.      SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
>                 24/7 alert
>
>then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
>approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
>something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
>
>That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.
>
>         - Andrew

Kevin Lee
Outsource your interactive projects to our team and we become your team.
TeamINTERACT
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FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 16:03
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 07:19 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>In article <4.2.0.58.20010912143616.0288def0@...>,
>         ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:
> >
> > i seriously doubt that commercial passenger aircraft will be able to get
> > into manhattan airspace without being blown up in the air.  i don't know
> > how this would happen, but i'm sure that the necessary precautions will be
> > taken in the future.  for this reason alone, it may be days before the
> > three major area airports reopen.
>
>Unless you expect either:
>
>         1.      JFK, LGA, and EWR to be permanently closed, or
>         2.      Every arriving and departing aircraft to be tailed
>                 by an armed escort, or
>         3.      SAM sites near the city/airports with staff on
>                 24/7 alert

or an on-board explosive device which is detonated from the ground.

>then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
>approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
>something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.

i'm contemplating the changing of air routes over nyc and sophisticated 
flight tracking being employed.  this ought to (at least) deter a 
*copy-cat* incident.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 15:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

>>As someone with a keen sense of his own family's long history of
rebellion
against a foreign power, I wish that America would be more open to
Palestinians' welfare on the land where they have born and raised.<<


I agree that man's basic mentality of 'us and them' is shortsighted and
stupid. I agree that horrible acts have been perpetrated for the sake of
'salvation' and 'one true god'.  But if you take the above statement, it
also means that those Palestinians (or whomever) that are in this country,
making a living, and enjoying what this country gives them; if they've
harbored a terrorist, or help their cause, or, at this moment, celebrating
the events of yesterday - then they are NOT American.






FROM: Gerard McGovern
DATE: Wed 21:03
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

> That said, I'm on the "build bigger and better" side too.

Then I think you are mad. You are just inviting someone to target it
again. And they will

Having a building that size was sheer madness anyway ... let say there
had a been a regular fire on the 20th ... how do the other 80 floors
above get out and how do you put a fire out which is 20 stories above
you?

Build a memorial and build smaller buildings across NYC. In this digital
age, you don't need to be in Wall Street to do business with Wall
Street.

Peace,

--

  =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95
  Gerard McGovern
  Webmonkey to the stars

    gerard@...
    http://www.inkiboo.com

  =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95 =BA =95







FROM: 
DATE: Wed 15:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Fun ding

>>The sad (and frightening) irony is that our "help" in Afghanistan was
training Ben Laden to carry out terrorist activities against Russia.  I
guess we do bear some responsibility after all.<<


which is why, if he is responsible, his acts are so heinous....and Bush
has stated 'any country harboring...' -- Arafat has stated his sorry and
good feelings; then he should live by them.






FROM: Tom Simpson
DATE: Wed 16:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] lost cat in Park Slope...

I'm going to put some posters up, but when I went out to try and donate
blood again (no one wanted my A positive blood yesterday) there was a lost
cat on my apartment's doorstep.  Very affectionate, and obviously someone's
pet.  I don't have any way to get him to a shelter (or know of any brooklyn
shelters near park slope).  He started hissing and chasing my cats in my
apartment so I can't keep him here.  If anyone knows of someone who lost a
cat or can take one in please drop me a line.

I took two photos of the cat, they're at http://toomanymonkeys.org/cat/

Tom Simpson

He who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.
- Lao-Tzu







FROM: cb
DATE: Wed 16:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

I did not have a problem getting to the site. Yes, the weight limit is 110
lbs. I can't seem to find anything that states that if you have tattoos you
can't give blood. Did you read this somewhere or was told this information?
I would like to know if having them is a factor. Does anyone know?

-Dawn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikki Monkolchayut" <mikki@...>
To: <mspiegler@...>; "wwwac" <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] donate blood!


> http://www.redcross.org/services/biomed/blood/learn/eligibl.html
> Any one else having problems getting on this site.
> It just hangs for me.
>
> Yeah, there is a min weight.  115, 120 or 125???
> Last time I got refused cause I didn't weigh enough.
>
> A pint is a pint from a 100lb woman or a 200lb man.
>
> At 3:18 PM -0400 9/12/01, Matt wrote:
> >over 125 lbs?
> >
> >Mikki Monkolchayut wrote:
> >
> >>  I want to give blood, am O+, and that is in high demand.
> >>  Traveled a lot so I maybe refused, before I stand on a long line, can
> >>  someone tell me who would be refused.
> >>
> >>  Drug users
> >>  tatoos,
> >>  travelers, esp. 3rd world nations and mad cow infected areas
> >>  over 125lbs
> >>
> >>  so who is left to give blood???
> >>
> >>  M
> >>
> >>  At 8:00 PM -0400 9/11/01, Joanna Wissinger wrote:
> >>  >At 2:02 PM -0400 9/11/01, Hendrick Bosse wrote:
> >>  >>Anyone knows where to give blood exept for the locations mentioned
in
> >>  >>NYT (except Red Cross, because I am European and they refuse my
donation
> >>  >>because of possible Mad Cow Disease......makes you feel great after
5
> >>  >>years in the US)
> >>  >
> >>  >I got refused also, too much time spent in the UK.
> >>  >--
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >Joanna Wissinger
> >>  >c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
> >>  >content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
> >>  >what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at
http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq
> >>  --
> >>  Mikki Monkolchayut
> >>  http://www.msbuddhafly.com
> >>  http://www.thai-in.com
> --
> Mikki Monkolchayut
> http://www.msbuddhafly.com
> http://www.thai-in.com






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] Flight paths available

In article <p05100302b7c56ab6584f@...>,
	hens@... (hens) writes:
> On 9/12/01 at 7:31 PM +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> 
>> http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/spSec/wtcst.jsp
> [...]
>> Until they turned for the WTC, it looked like
>> they were orbiting at a relatively fixed distance
>> from WTC (easy to do with gear on even little
>> aircraft).
> 
> I know they're looking at jet training centers across the country, but it's
> just as easy to pick up a computer flight simulation game for a couple of
> bucks, with realistic renditions of the controls of all aircraft involved.
> 
> Having played some of those myself, once you're up in the air, it's so easy
> it's almost boring. And these guys never had to deal with properly landing.

When you say that you've "played some of those", do you mean that
you've also flown the 757/767 aircraft and compared them to the
games?  If not, then how precisely do you know the level of real
reality achieved?

So far, it looks like the pilots were trained pilots.  They knew, 
for example, about the transponder.  Do these games include that?

That's not to say that the pilots actually had type ratings for
the specific aircraft.  But given the ease with which on can
receive flight training, why would the mastermind *not* use
real pilots?  It's a small investment for a significant increase
in the likelyhood of success.

Besides, they're finding, in Venice Florida, where some of these
people may have been trained.

	- Andrew





FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 21:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] war? (sex and money)

Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...> writes:

> Which is just another way of saying that it's alright when Arabs Kill Jews
> over 800 years, but when Jews defend themselves...then it's rather
> complicated.

From Yes, Minister:

"It's that irregular verb, I am a freedom fighter, you are a
guerrilla, he is a terrorist."

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------





FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <20010912154349.E21093@...>,
	ruben@... (Brooklyn Linux Solutions) writes:
> No
> 
> This is not true.  Any unauthorized air craft in the skies of Manhattan has
> ALWAYS been eligable to be shot down without reason.  And their is every
> reason to shoot down anythign in Manhattan Air Space which is too low
> without permission, and no reason to ever not shoot it down.
>

I hope that, professionally, you spend more time checking facts.  The
local air space is class B (excluding the VFR corridors, about which
you already know).  One has all sorts of difficulties upon violating
class B space, but being shot down is not one of them.

	- Andrew





FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:23
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <BFF4D3DE03BC304FBE2EAE125E87B8020404E0@...>,
	dave@... ("David Choi") writes:
> air marshalls as they called it... like cops on a subway train...

Right.  All the talk about restricting local airspace or firing upon
civilian craft overflying NYC is pretty much nonsense in the norm.
But, hopefully, we will start putting air marshalls on aircraft
on a regular basis.  That little, low-tech solution would go a 
long way towards eliminating the possibility of a repetition
of this incident.

	- Andrew





FROM: Michael Pinto
DATE: Wed 13:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] From NY1

There is a need at Chelsea Piers for clean t-shirts and cel phone chargers.

Michael

=====
M I C H A E L   J A M E S   P I N T O
------------------------------------------------------------
Support My Reading Habit: http://www.fanboy.com 
Where I Work: http://www.vm.com
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FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] A pilot (and almost-friend) was near the second attack

In article <Pine.LNX.3.96.1010912145807.9488C-100000@...>,
	grimmwerks@... writes:
> 
> Course his sentiments about killing an arab aren't too cool (his home
> page).

Sheesh.  Yes.  It wasn't like this before.  He used to have some
nice and informative aviation stories there.

	- Andrew





FROM: Nathan Strutz
DATE: Wed 12:35
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

hens said:
> That said, I haven't heard from any Bible thumpers yet pointing out the
> passage in the Book of revelations that predicted this, but I /predict/
> there will be many such idiots.

Oh please.

Sure, I could hunt through revelation and find you a verse or two, but then
what? "see, i told you so"? Seems completely pointless.

I could be wrong, butI don't even think the bible said anything about this.
Furthermore, I don't think the bible said anything specifically about our
great nation whatsoever.

One nice thing about the bible is that it's useful for all times. For
example Psalm 23 in GWB's speech.

If you want me to, though, I could bend and twist the words and meanings
until they said something about how this was going to happen or whatever.

-nathan strutz






FROM: mrs.j.hart
DATE: Wed 16:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] Give A Shout Out Please

------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C13BA9.E09111C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

there are levels of friendship and communication...

i wouldn't be thinking about certain people under other circumstances - =
the distant family member and friends of friends such as their AA flight =
attendant buddies i've met socially (yet i couldn't be sure i'd =
recognize their names). i'm thinking about them now because i haven't =
heard anything and it's unsettling.=20
=20
anyone i know might've been on those planes or downtown yesterday...=20
=20
i've been checking for new messages with an anticipation that's =
different than it's ever been before. it's especially good to recognize =
an ID - at least to think a friend is making it through the devastation =
of New York (and the DC or Pennsylvania crashes).=20
=20
i guess that's what's making me read the list.
=20
yesterday, i'm sure we were all thinking about people we didn't expect =
to communicate with via e-mail. i know i contemplated trying to get in =
touch with some people by phone, but imagining they'd be anxious to hear =
from loved ones, i didn't want the ringing of my phone call to disturb =
them by creating false hopes.
=20
regarding those whose phone numbers i wouldn't be likely to have, =
sending individual e-mails to let people know they've been on my mind =
would make sense, but there are some people i don't have a lot of =
history with. it feels awkward - as if doing this now is too much - it =
might make someone feel obligated to express similar sentiments and =
that's not fair/not necessary.=20

AFAIK my longtime friends and close family members are safe, but there =
are other connections - WWWAC acquaintances - friends whom i know have =
offices in the downtown area ...
=20
i'm speaking for many of us by saying there are people we may feel we =
know, whom we've never met - even if they don't show up as often as the =
familiar names that have appeared on this list since yesterday :)
=20
so if you're safe, give a quick shout out and let us all know...

who am i? who is mr.j?

------=_NextPart_000_013F_01C13BA9.E09111C0--






FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 13:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] Paterson (and Palestinians)

are they still celebrating??

hanan ashrawi, spokeswoman for the palestinian government, has stated 
that palestinian street celebrations in the west bank etc were by a 
minority and only on first reports of the attack, that they were 
celebrating what they thought was a political / military strike, that 
they stopped dancing and passing out candy once they realized the 
enormity of the impact on civilians, and that the palestinian 
government abhors and condemns the attack, and that it's 
unprecedented and terrible. arafat has made similar comments.

it will be interesting to see if this situation motivates arafat and 
israeli foreign minister shimon peres to get back to peace talks. 
u.s. secty of state colin powell has asked in a press conference that 
they get past haggling about location for continuing talks and get 
active with the talks themselves.

the palestinian celebrations does seem to be a barometer of the 
extent to which they feel the u.s. has armed israel against them. and 
i guess there's an outside chance that the events of this past week 
could bring new perspective to that process.

dg


gabriel friedman <gfriedma@...>

>i found it on mapquest...i thought at first you meant brooklyn, where
>there's a major arab community on atlantic near flatbush. I'm afraid to go
>down there. I wish the networks would stop showing footage of cheering
>palestinains....given how unreliable "demonstrations" from that area can be,
>i'm sure it would be easy enough to rouse a crowd.
>
>Even if some people are cheering the attack, it only fans the flames 
>right now...
>
>hope crooks ave is quiet.
>
>  > From: <grimmwerks@...>:
>  >
>>  Its...well, kind of between 46 and Hazel street, parrallel to Valley and
>>  Broad, if you know the area.
>>
>>  It's not that far from my house.
>>
>>  On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, gabriel friedman wrote:
>>
>>>  where is crooks ave?
>>>
>  >>> <grimmwerks@...>:
>  >>>
>>>>  I'm going to check this out when I get home (Clifton) but I heard on the
>  >>> radio that there are Palestinians celebrating on Crooks Ave -- 
>makes me sick.





FROM: Josh & Valerie McCormack
DATE: Wed 16:49
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

Biblical prophecy does not mean that something is an act of God. I could point
out verses you could interpret to be related to this, but I don't think there's
much purpose to doing so. If you want to check it out, I'm sure you could
figure out where to look. And I agree, this was an act of man against man.

Josh

hens wrote:

> On 9/12/01 at 12:22 PM -0700, David Glober wrote:
>
> > still, it's intriguing to look at, and i'm always curious when a
> > passage comes up to review that some one thinks might fit.
>
> Totally agree. Nostradamus was a rambling idiot, whose many, many verses
> can be explained in any which way you prefer.
>
> That said, I haven't heard from any Bible thumpers yet pointing out the
> passage in the Book of revelations that predicted this, but I /predict/
> there will be many such idiots.
>
> All this nonsense does is reinforce people's tendency to avoid dealing with
> reality: This was not an act of God. This was an act of humans against
> other humans.
>
> --
>                          <http://www.monospace.com>
>                          You are visitor number one.






FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 21:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

"Gerard McGovern" <stuff@...> writes:

> Having a building that size was sheer madness anyway ... let say there
> had a been a regular fire on the 20th ... how do the other 80 floors
> above get out and how do you put a fire out which is 20 stories above
> you?

Buildings are designed to detect and suppress normal fires very
quickly. Having that much aviation fuel injected so quickly wasn't on
anyone's plan.

-- 
David Hodgkinson, Wizard for Hire            http://www.hodgkinson.org
Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star           http://www.deep-purple.com
   Interim Technical Director, Web Architecture Consultant for hire
       --------------------------------------------------------





FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 16:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] You're not going to get hurt.

From Christian Science Monitor:

"One of the pilots keyed their mike so the conversation between the pilot
and the person in the cockpit could be heard," a second controller says.
"The person in the cockpit was speaking in English. He was saying something
like, 'Don't do anything foolish. You're not going to get hurt.' "

http://www.csmonitor.com/earlyed/earlyUSA4.html



-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Jonathan Hamel
DATE: Wed 13:45
SUBJ: [wwwac] Is it time to sacrafice some of our freedoms?

Haven't read the article yet, but no, in principle, never.  Otherwise, all
those who have died and will die for our freedoms will died in vain.  All
this proves is that our freedoms must be defended vigorously.  That we cannot
forget the sacrifices of those who have died for our sake, during this 200+
year experiment.  That we cannot allow ourselves to be lulled into
complacency:  freedoms are something you have to fight for.


--- Jeremy Zevin <jzevin@...> wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/627390_asp.htm


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Robert Gruber
DATE: Wed 16:50
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

At 3:38 PM -0400 9/12/01, hens wrote:

>Totally agree. Nostradamus was a rambling idiot, whose many, many verses
>can be explained in any which way you prefer.
>
>That said, I haven't heard from any Bible thumpers yet pointing out the
>passage in the Book of revelations that predicted this, but I /predict/
>there will be many such idiots.
>
>All this nonsense does is reinforce people's tendency to avoid dealing with
>reality: This was not an act of God. This was an act of humans against
>other humans.
>

I have to say this Nostradamus crap circulating demeans this tragedy. 
Even if he predicted it, which I think is a load of shit, so what? 
The people are still dead. Should we be pouring over Nostradamus to 
avoid further tragedy?

I have little tolerance for the mention of religion now, particularly 
by the president, as it seems that if it was Islamic fundamentalists, 
then religion and the idea of dying to go to heaven was exploited by 
whoever ordered this.

If you want to be spiritual on your own, fine. But as far as I'm 
concerned organized religion, of whatever type, has blood on it's 
hands.

One of the fundamental principles of the greatest democracy on earth, 
that everyone is rallying around right now, is the separation of 
church and state, and it is something that is eroded everytime I hear 
the president launch into some religious epithet. We're not walking 
down the valley of darkness, this is Wall Street and there are dead 
people buried under rubble.

I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it 
is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that 
is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world 
leaders alike.

Rob
-- 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Robert Gruber, Inc.
Web Development

www.robertgruber.com
rob@...





FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 16:55
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:43:49 -0400
Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...> wrote:
> 
> This is not true.  Any unauthorized air craft in the skies of Manhattan has
> ALWAYS been eligable to be shot down without reason.  And their is every
> reason to shoot down anythign in Manhattan Air Space which is too low
> without permission, and no reason to ever not shoot it down.
> 
Well, that may or may not be true, especially given the lack of
definition for such concepts as "authorized." An authoritative source
for the above factoid would be good. The following article is written by
a small craft pilot that claims to fly the Hudson corridor at low
altitudes without ever having to talk to a single controller:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/12/pilot_story/index.html

Besides, shooting down aircraft over population centers is not exaclty
without consequence, and until now such an action as crashing aircraft
into large buildings wasn't even considered as a realistic possibility.

I think it would be most helpful for people making claims to back them
up rather than just blather. This is vitally important, after all, and
getting facts straight is critical. First person accounts and primary
authoritative sources are key, and other offhand comments have to be
discounted until supported, IMHO.

Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing how such a "shoot down" policy
would be managed, especially the liability angle. Seems fraught with
potentials like property damage and wrongful death suits. After all, the
passengers of such aircraft aren't just disposable, nor are the hapless
folks on the ground. Are they?

Scott






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 15:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] What does this mean?

A friend got a message from Germany about the attack and the subject line is
"kein Betreff."  I tried altavista and it said, "no concern."

German-speakers, what does it actually mean?

-------------------------------
Scott Shirley
Web Administrator
http://www.stewartenterprises.com






FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 15:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Fun
	 ding

Ben Laden is beyond Arafat's control.  Many would argue that everything is
beyond Arafat's control.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grimmwerks@... <mailto:grimmwerks@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:04 PM
> To: Shirley, Scott
> Cc: wwwac
> Subject: RE: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of
> Fun ding
> 
> 
> >>The sad (and frightening) irony is that our "help" in 
> Afghanistan was
> training Ben Laden to carry out terrorist activities against 
> Russia.  I
> guess we do bear some responsibility after all.<<
> 
> 
> which is why, if he is responsible, his acts are so 
> heinous....and Bush
> has stated 'any country harboring...' -- Arafat has stated 
> his sorry and
> good feelings; then he should live by them.
> 





FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 21:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <4.2.0.58.20010912155646.0288fff8@...>,
	ddouglas@... (Duane Douglas) writes:

> or an on-board explosive device which is detonated from the ground.

Why not just advertise a phone number with "call this number to
blow up a plane"?  You work in the computing industry.  Do you
really expect this to be hack proof?

Separate from that, can you imagine the public's response?

I don't think this likely either.  Air Marshalls are the best
bet, along with restrictions on carry-ons, greater screening, 
and the like.

>>then your scenario is unlikely.  The flight time from final
>>approach at these airports to NYC is just too short to shoot
>>something down unless one already has a finger on the trigger.
> 
> i'm contemplating the changing of air routes over nyc and sophisticated 
> flight tracking being employed.  this ought to (at least) deter a 
> *copy-cat* incident.

Final approach to the 4L and 4R at EWR passes within spitting
distance of downtown NYC.  You're not changing that unless
you move the runways.

Actually, if you consider vectors and time, it might be
easier to reach NYC from final to 22L and 22R.  You're
farther, but moving in the right direction.  Get close
to the runway, call a missed approach, make a small
turn, and you're over Wall Street in 1 or 2 minutes.

Neither JFK nor LGA is quite as close as EWR.  But a missed
approach from 31L or 31R at JFK puts one about 12 or so
nautical miles from midtown.  At 200 knots, that's under 4
minutes travel time.

	- Andrew





FROM: Brian Wane
DATE: Wed 17:07
SUBJ: [wwwac] bbc

When possible watch the bbc on cable channel 21. They give a lot
more information and better perspectives. There were some chilling
comments from people in Arab nations like Egypt that we are not seeing on
American news stations.


:: Smerc Design ::
:: 646.319.4232 ::







FROM: Dave Hodgkinson
DATE: Wed 22:00
SUBJ: [wwwac] The BBC


I just noticed why your connectivity to the BBC has been so good when
my links to the US have been sluggish: they mirror in NY...

=46rom rackspace:

=2E..
 9  so-4-0-0.mp1.Dallas1.Level3.net (209.247.10.97)  6.571 ms  6.495 ms  =
6.502 ms
10  so-3-0-0.mp1.NewYork1.level3.net (64.159.1.41)  707.106 ms  596.788 m=
s  606.188 ms
11  * loopback0.hsipaccess1.NewYork1.Level3.net (209.244.2.210)  642.475 =
ms  620.270 ms
12  unknown.Level3.net (209.244.160.70)  45.066 ms  45.277 ms  45.268 ms
13  * www2.thny.bbc.co.uk (212.58.240.32)  45.349 ms *

Apache on solaris, for what that's worth. No real relevance, it just
piqued the geek.=





FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 17:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 03:33 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Alon Koppel wrote:
>In this case this will be the cockpit. On some airlines (El-Al for one) no
>one can just walk in and take over the pilot's seat because they are locked
>behind two metal doors that will only be opened from the inside. this is the
>simplest, most effective thing they can start doing right now on all planes.
>I am not saying this will take down all terrorist attempts, but at least
>it's a start that doesn't even disturb anyone's privacy.

it is too easy for a determined terrorist to trick the cockpit crew into 
opening the the cockpit door.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: Josh & Valerie McCormack
DATE: Wed 17:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of Funding

Reagan made government sponsored assassination illegal.

Josh

Matt wrote:

> Can you even declare war officially against an individual or organization?
> Given Osama Bin Laden's (assuming he's guilty) high mobility, it may be more
> complicated than declaring war on one nation, since he could be in twelve
> different countries in as many days. It may be more like a cat-and-mouse chase
> with heavy weaponry.
>
> "Martin T. Focazio" wrote:
>
> > Bush calls it "an act of war"
> > Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
> > Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"
> >
> > Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a declaration of war.
> >
> >   (but against whom?)
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Martin T. Focazio
> > Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
> > Martin T. Focazio LLC.
> > Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
> > 610.847.1118 voice
> > mtfocazio AOL IM
> > focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: McKeever, Marty
DATE: Wed 17:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


> Right.  All the talk about restricting local airspace or firing upon
> civilian craft overflying NYC is pretty much nonsense in the norm.
> But, hopefully, we will start putting air marshalls on aircraft
> on a regular basis.  That little, low-tech solution would go a 
> long way towards eliminating the possibility of a repetition
> of this incident.

An even cheaper (and more high-tech) idea -- lets arm flight attendants with
Tasers!
perfect for terrorists with boxcutters, drunk and obnoxious tourists, and
unruly children.






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 17:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] NYC Police/Fire Frequencies?

Does anyone have a list or a website of NYC Police/Fire/Emergency scanner 
frequencies?

-Peter


Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 17:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] Flight paths available

http://www.floridapilot.com/cgi-win/wc.exe?pilot~s_display~Huf371510

this is the flight school where the alleged terrorist pilots are said to
have trained.  rather disturbing logo, don't you think?

--
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net







FROM: Cone
DATE: Wed 16:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] just wondering...

These suicide bombers are in my mind rightly referred to as "cowards"
because they are para-military operatives using weapons - both weapons
of mass destruction [i.e., airplanes] and hand-to-hand weapons [i.e.,
knives] - against unarmed civilians. There is a long tradition of
linking cowardice with ignobility - and surely, no one believes these
acts of terrorism were courageous, noble acts.

- Wil 


-----Original Message-----

i've heard the word 'coward' used to describe the suicide bombers more
than once (first by "president" bush, and here, as well)...

how is it that someone who can infiltrate federal systems, hijack a
plane and then DRIVE IT RIGHT INTO A HUGE BUILDING is referred to as a
'coward'?

just curious - i realize it's off-topic and pointless...


dori








FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 14:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

ag797@... (Andrew Gideon):
>Right.  All the talk about restricting local airspace or firing upon
>civilian craft overflying NYC is pretty much nonsense in the norm.
>But, hopefully, we will start putting air marshalls on aircraft
>on a regular basis.  That little, low-tech solution would go a
>long way towards eliminating the possibility of a repetition
>of this incident.


i've been wondering about this, and how many per plane, and what 
training, and how to make sure it doesn't become something oppressive 
instead of protective?





FROM: Michael Pinto
DATE: Wed 14:03
SUBJ: [wwwac] From NY1



There is a need at Chelsea Piers for clean t-shirts and cel phone chargers.

Michael


=====
M I C H A E L   J A M E S   P I N T O
------------------------------------------------------------
Support My Reading Habit: http://www.fanboy.com 
Where I Work: http://www.vm.com
More About Me: http://www.michaelpinto.com  
My Favorite Music: http://www.thefall.org 
------------------------------------------------------------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 17:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] Holy Smoke

On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:05:32 -0400
Scott Bowling <scott@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:22:49 -0500
> "Shirley, Scott" <SShirley@...> wrote:
> > ...
> > As to the collapses:
> > http://slate.msn.com/Code/explainer/explainer.asp?Show=9/11/2001&idMessage=8265
> > 
> Another article with some interesting bits of information:
>    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2001/09/11/collapse_background/index.html
> 
And another site:

   http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.htm

Which has info and links to these other interesting (if you're into tall
buildings) sites:

   http://www.greatbuildings.com/
   http://www.skyscraper.org/

Of course, Goggle has a category with many such sites:

   http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Architecture/History/

Though the loss of the structure and damage to the skyline is dreadful,
the loss of life and damage to our collective psyche is far worse. I'm
still reeling, in shock, feeling, as many, numb. As with Mikey P., my
brain registers the event intellectually, but I'm just not fully gettin'
it yet; it hasn't sunk in. Unbelievable.

Scott






FROM: Jason Wiener
DATE: Wed 17:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] History of hijackings?



I'm looking for some information regarding hijackings in the past,
particularly in regards to the results of those hijackings in loss
of life.

Am I correct in thinking that this represents the first time a hijacked
planes has been used directly as a weapon?

Am I correct in understanding that this is the first time all passengers
have been killed in a hijacking?

Jas






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 17:49
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 08:23 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>In article 
><BFF4D3DE03BC304FBE2EAE125E87B8020404E0@...>,
>         dave@... ("David Choi") writes:
> > air marshalls as they called it... like cops on a subway train...
>
>Right.  All the talk about restricting local airspace or firing upon
>civilian craft overflying NYC is pretty much nonsense in the norm.
>But, hopefully, we will start putting air marshalls on aircraft
>on a regular basis.  That little, low-tech solution would go a
>long way towards eliminating the possibility of a repetition
>of this incident.

let's be clear about something.  a *keystone* cop isn't going to deter or 
stop a cold blooded terrorist.  we need to ensure that manhattan buildings 
aren't hit by hijacked aircraft.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 14:50
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>"Gerard McGovern" <stuff@...> writes:
>
>>  Having a building that size was sheer madness anyway ... let say there
>>  had a been a regular fire on the 20th ... how do the other 80 floors
>>  above get out and how do you put a fire out which is 20 stories above
>  > you?

Dave Hodgkinson <daveh@...>:

>Buildings are designed to detect and suppress normal fires very
>quickly. Having that much aviation fuel injected so quickly wasn't on
>anyone's plan.

one report stated that the wtc towers were built to withstand impact 
(accidental or i suppose otherwise) from a 707 (though untested) but 
not larger.





FROM: Virginia Pruitt
DATE: Wed 17:52
SUBJ: [wwwac] need help with stuff for school damaged

I am a teacher in the High School for Leadership and Public Service, two
tiny blocks from the World Trade Center.  We left just in time. We all made
it. We had 500 or so kids to worry about and breathed a lot of soot and
asbestos in the process.

I am the web coordinator and Web Club mentor.

Your intellectual discussion about the causes of war is interesting but how
about putting your energy into helping us rebuild.

Our latest information is that the top floors of our building were blown
off.  Our library, the pride of the school and the envy of many, is
probably completely water damaged.
Many of us who used and taught computers probably lost them all.

We don't know when we will be back in the building but I think this group
can understand my heartbreak that many of our computers will have been
ruined.  Trust me, we won't see replacements in my lifetime through the
Board.  Many of these were donations.

Anyone want to help?

Virginia







FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 17:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] Millennium Building

MSNBC is saying the Millennium building (the big black windowed tower) is 
buckling heavily now, mostly from the vibration of the rest of WT2 falling.

-Peter


Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 17:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

The greater good says the you do the least harm - in this instance, the
plane would likely be shot down if it was detected as being en route to blow
up a building.


On 12-09-2001 16:55, "Scott Bowling" <scott@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:43:49 -0400
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...> wrote:
>> 
>> This is not true.  Any unauthorized air craft in the skies of Manhattan has
>> ALWAYS been eligable to be shot down without reason.  And their is every
>> reason to shoot down anythign in Manhattan Air Space which is too low
>> without permission, and no reason to ever not shoot it down.
>> 
> Well, that may or may not be true, especially given the lack of
> definition for such concepts as "authorized." An authoritative source
> for the above factoid would be good. The following article is written by
> a small craft pilot that claims to fly the Hudson corridor at low
> altitudes without ever having to talk to a single controller:
> 
> http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/12/pilot_story/index.html
> 
> Besides, shooting down aircraft over population centers is not exaclty
> without consequence, and until now such an action as crashing aircraft
> into large buildings wasn't even considered as a realistic possibility.
> 
> I think it would be most helpful for people making claims to back them
> up rather than just blather. This is vitally important, after all, and
> getting facts straight is critical. First person accounts and primary
> authoritative sources are key, and other offhand comments have to be
> discounted until supported, IMHO.
> 
> Anyway, I'd be interested in hearing how such a "shoot down" policy
> would be managed, especially the liability angle. Seems fraught with
> potentials like property damage and wrongful death suits. After all, the
> passengers of such aircraft aren't just disposable, nor are the hapless
> folks on the ground. Are they?
> 
> Scott






FROM: Steven Clift
DATE: Wed 17:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] 3D Model of Lower Manhattan?


Anyone found a good one?  Which buildings are falling now?

What I found:
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/World_Trade_Center.html
http://www.simcenter.org/Projects/Lower_Manhattan/body_lower_manhattan.html
http://www.geoplace.com/gw/1999/0399/399_3d.asp

Steven Clift
http://www.politicalbs.com






FROM: Dan
DATE: Wed 15:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT - A Canadian journalist's view

The guy who wrote this is a really cool guy - Gordon Sinclair ...who also
happens to be one of the smartest journalists I have had the chance of
meeting when I was in the field back in Toronto....

I thought you might all appreciate it today...

Cheers,

Dan

-----------------

America: The Good Neighbor.


 Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
 recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
 Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
 commentator. What follows is the full text of his
 trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:



"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people
on all the earth.

 Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
 Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
 Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
 forgave other billions in debts. None of these
 countries is today paying even the interest on its
 remaining debts to the United States.

 When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
 it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
 reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
 of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

 When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
 United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59  American
communities were flattened by tornadoes.  Nobody helped.

 The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
 billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now  newspapers in
those countries are writing about the  decadent, warmongering Americans.

 I'd like to see just one of those countries that
 is gloating over the erosion of the United States
 dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
 in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
 Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
 If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines
except Russia fly American Planes?

 Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
 a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese  technocracy, and
you get radios. You talk about German  technocracy, and you get
automobiles.

 You talk about American technocracy, and you find
 men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
 and safely home again.

 You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
 right in the store window for everybody to look at.
 Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
 They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
 they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
 dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

 When the railways of France, Germany and India
 were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
 who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
 the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
 old caboose. Both are still broke.

 I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
 to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
 me even one time when someone else raced to the
 Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
 help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

 Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
 Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
 kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
 their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
 to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
 over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of  those."

 Stand proud, America!






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 18:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

Not if they're trained not to open the door.

I mean, it would be a shitty situation, a threat to the passengers or 
flight attendants, for instance, but if they're trained not to open the 
door, they won't open the door.

-Peter

At 05:09 PM 9/12/01 -0400, Duane Douglas wrote:
>it is too easy for a determined terrorist to trick the cockpit crew into 
>opening the the cockpit door.



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: Timothy Embler
DATE: Wed 15:02
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

I am religious and I feel he should NOT be making religious statements
as well.  

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Gruber [mailto:lists@... 
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:50 PM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: RE: [wwwac] Nostradamus


At 3:38 PM -0400 9/12/01, hens wrote:

>Totally agree. Nostradamus was a rambling idiot, whose many, many 
>verses can be explained in any which way you prefer.
>
>That said, I haven't heard from any Bible thumpers yet pointing out the

>passage in the Book of revelations that predicted this, but I /predict/

>there will be many such idiots.
>
>All this nonsense does is reinforce people's tendency to avoid dealing 
>with
>reality: This was not an act of God. This was an act of humans against
>other humans.
>

I have to say this Nostradamus crap circulating demeans this tragedy. 
Even if he predicted it, which I think is a load of shit, so what? 
The people are still dead. Should we be pouring over Nostradamus to 
avoid further tragedy?

I have little tolerance for the mention of religion now, particularly 
by the president, as it seems that if it was Islamic fundamentalists, 
then religion and the idea of dying to go to heaven was exploited by 
whoever ordered this.

If you want to be spiritual on your own, fine. But as far as I'm 
concerned organized religion, of whatever type, has blood on it's 
hands.

One of the fundamental principles of the greatest democracy on earth, 
that everyone is rallying around right now, is the separation of 
church and state, and it is something that is eroded everytime I hear 
the president launch into some religious epithet. We're not walking 
down the valley of darkness, this is Wall Street and there are dead 
people buried under rubble.

I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it 
is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that 
is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world 
leaders alike.

Rob
-- 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Robert Gruber, Inc.
Web Development

www.robertgruber.com
rob@...








FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 18:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] What does this mean?

On 9/12/01 at 3:56 PM -0500, Shirley, Scott wrote:

> A friend got a message from Germany about the attack and the subject line is
> "kein Betreff."  I tried altavista and it said, "no concern."
>
> German-speakers, what does it actually mean?

It roughly translates to "No Subject".

German email clients use the word "Betreff" where we use "RE:"



-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 18:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

They also have 15 minute pre-boarding checks and armed guards on all
flights.  It seems like we're going to have to become much more on guard.

Mark

On 12-09-2001 17:09, "Duane Douglas" <ddouglas@...> wrote:

> At 03:33 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Alon Koppel wrote:
>> In this case this will be the cockpit. On some airlines (El-Al for one) no
>> one can just walk in and take over the pilot's seat because they are locked
>> behind two metal doors that will only be opened from the inside. this is the
>> simplest, most effective thing they can start doing right now on all planes.
>> I am not saying this will take down all terrorist attempts, but at least
>> it's a start that doesn't even disturb anyone's privacy.
> 
> it is too easy for a determined terrorist to trick the cockpit crew into
> opening the the cockpit door.
> 
> if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion
> && xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: Larry Aronson
DATE: Wed 15:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rescheduling Flights

Hi.

I was finally able to reschedule my flight back to NYC. I was to be 
on American Airlines Flight 10, LAX->JFK (aka, the red-eye) tonight, 
but that had been canceled. AA was able to get me seats on a non-stop 
flight Friday morning. I am anxious to get back to the city I love.

When I first reached a AA human being, I expressed my condolences for 
the loss of their personnel. The guy immediately opened up to me. 
He's air national guard  and a previous caller had just harangued him 
with the notion that the tragedy was AA's fault. Some people...

While I'm at it, my thanks to Marc Jaffe and his staff at Globix for 
keeping their data center, just south of Canal street, up and 
running. The WWWAC servers are co-located there and without their 
efforts, we'd not have this valuable list to share our thoughts and 
info.

larry





FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 18:07
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:56:02 -0400
Mark Frieser <mark@...> wrote:
>
> The greater good says the you do the least harm - in this instance, the
> plane would likely be shot down if it was detected as being en route to blow
> up a building.
> 
Not something that can be "detected," per se, at least until the last
minute. And though it's been used in many stories, such an actualization
was evidently not seriously considered. Now it's on the radar, so to
speak, and will be considered seriously as contingencies are planned
for. The thought of putting an armed guard in the craft makes me
shudder, as that potentially becomes a new source for security breaches.
Perhaps there's nothing better to do, but it makes me queasy.

Another interesting article about the situation, detailing the actions
of the plane and responses of the military:

   http://www.msnbc.com/news/627524_asp.htm

Scott






FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 18:07
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of
	Funding

No, that was Ford



On 12-09-2001 17:17, "Josh & Valerie McCormack"
<traveler@...> wrote:

> Reagan made government sponsored assassination illegal.
> 
> Josh
> 
> Matt wrote:
> 
>> Can you even declare war officially against an individual or organization?
>> Given Osama Bin Laden's (assuming he's guilty) high mobility, it may be more
>> complicated than declaring war on one nation, since he could be in twelve
>> different countries in as many days. It may be more like a cat-and-mouse
>> chase
>> with heavy weaponry.
>> 
>> "Martin T. Focazio" wrote:
>> 
>>> Bush calls it "an act of war"
>>> Asks congress for unlimited funding for repairs, retaliation.
>>> Does not say it is a "formal declaration of war"
>>> 
>>> Sounds to me like he's going to congress to ask for a declaration of war.
>>> 
>>>   (but against whom?)
>>> 
>>> --
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Martin T. Focazio
>>> Direct OFF-LIST Replies to: Martin@...
>>> Martin T. Focazio LLC.
>>> Executive Education, Management Consulting, Strategic Planning
>>> 610.847.1118 voice
>>> mtfocazio AOL IM
>>> focazio Yahoo Messenger






FROM: 
DATE: Wed 17:10
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

>>I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it
is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that
is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world
leaders alike.<<

I agree with you Rob; with a Lutheran minister father, a Christian
Reformed minister uncle, and a 12 year history of private Christian
schooling, the one thing that has always kept me from joining 'the
corporation' is the idea that every person who has some differing faith
seems to think that they're way is the only true way (even splitting the
Christian religion into catholic and protestant, and denominations of
same) - it doesn't bring man together, it seems, but makes the division
more clear. 

From a Christian perspective, with the years of 'saving' others, the Holy
Wars, the Crusades...if there was a Christ, I swear he'd be shaking his
head saying "you dudes just didn't get it".








FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 15:11
SUBJ: [wwwac] Re: we were warned

--============_-1211789775==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

comments by followers of bin laden made to the editor of Al-Quds 
Al-Arabi, in london, were published in that paper, in which they 
stated that something massive was being planned as an attack against 
the united states.

u.s. intelligence may or may not have been monitoring it, but then 
again may have been since the editor is known to have met with bin 
laden and his people over recent years.

apparently ... the editor probably did not place a warning call per 
se, but did not withhold the info either.

dg
--============_-1211789775==_ma============--





FROM: ujin_c
DATE: Wed 15:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] bbc

you can also stream it here:

http://idirector.media.ibeam.com/netshow/v2/onair/BBC/BBCworld_300k.asx



----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Wane" <bpwane@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:07 PM
Subject: [wwwac] bbc


> When possible watch the bbc on cable channel 21. They give a lot
> more information and better perspectives. There were some chilling
> comments from people in Arab nations like Egypt that we are not seeing on
> American news stations.
>
>
> :: Smerc Design ::
> :: 646.319.4232 ::





FROM: Steven Clift
DATE: Wed 17:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] bbc


For lower bandwidth Quicktime BBC World stream:
http://www.bbcworld.com/content/world_live/world_channel.asp


For a 300K BBC World Stream, try:
http://idirector.media.ibeam.com/netshow/v2/onair/BBC/BBCworld_300k.asx


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Brian Wane wrote:

> When possible watch the bbc on cable channel 21. They give a lot
> more information and better perspectives. There were some chilling
> comments from people in Arab nations like Egypt that we are not seeing on
> American news stations.
> 
> 
> :: Smerc Design ::
> :: 646.319.4232 ::






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 18:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 09:04 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>Final approach to the 4L and 4R at EWR passes within spitting
>distance of downtown NYC.  You're not changing that unless
>you move the runways.

or restrict the runways.  this is not an unreasonable proposition.  we're 
talking about preventing this kind of tragedy in the future.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: metrocake
DATE: Wed 15:03
SUBJ: [wwwac] Can anyone identify this building?

Hi, everyone...

Can anyone identify the third building in this
picture?  I took this shot back in May; I cannot
recall from which direction:
http://www.metrocake.com/images/random/Dscn0027.jpg

Thanks for any help.

-- Roe

=====
* m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
http://www.metrocake.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Josh & Valerie McCormack
DATE: Wed 18:16
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

Seperation of Church and State was written to prevent the country from being
church run, not to exclude religion from people's lives, wether they be in
government or not.

Also, don't lump everything together forbidding anyone from believing anything
because someone who may have been an Islamic fundamentalist committed a horible
act. Yes, organized religion, organized by man, is succeptible to the
cruelities of man. But Pres. Bush didn't salute an organized religion, he
quoted the Bible. People will exploit whatever they can to justify their own
purposes.

Josh

Robert Gruber wrote:

> I have to say this Nostradamus crap circulating demeans this tragedy.
> Even if he predicted it, which I think is a load of shit, so what?
> The people are still dead. Should we be pouring over Nostradamus to
> avoid further tragedy?
>
> I have little tolerance for the mention of religion now, particularly
> by the president, as it seems that if it was Islamic fundamentalists,
> then religion and the idea of dying to go to heaven was exploited by
> whoever ordered this.
>
> If you want to be spiritual on your own, fine. But as far as I'm
> concerned organized religion, of whatever type, has blood on it's
> hands.
>
> One of the fundamental principles of the greatest democracy on earth,
> that everyone is rallying around right now, is the separation of
> church and state, and it is something that is eroded everytime I hear
> the president launch into some religious epithet. We're not walking
> down the valley of darkness, this is Wall Street and there are dead
> people buried under rubble.
>
> I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it
> is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that
> is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world
> leaders alike.
>
> Rob
> --
> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> Robert Gruber, Inc.
> Web Development
>
> www.robertgruber.com
> rob@...






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 22:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <3B9FCBAD1CC.B40BSCOTT@...>,
	scott@... (Scott Bowling) writes:
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:43:49 -0400
> Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...> wrote:
>> 
>> This is not true.  Any unauthorized air craft in the skies of Manhattan has
>> ALWAYS been eligable to be shot down without reason.  And their is every
>> reason to shoot down anythign in Manhattan Air Space which is too low
>> without permission, and no reason to ever not shoot it down.
>> 
> Well, that may or may not be true, especially given the lack of
> definition for such concepts as "authorized." An authoritative source
> for the above factoid would be good. The following article is written by
> a small craft pilot that claims to fly the Hudson corridor at low
> altitudes without ever having to talk to a single controller:
> 
> http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/09/12/pilot_story/index.html

Many of us have flown the corridor.  It's a popular local flight.
In fact, it was a friend taking me on that trip that caused me
to become a pilot.  See:

	http://www.gideon.org/andrew/PhotoAlbum/Flying/10/

But that's just a cut within the class B space overlying the local
airports (and therefore NYC).  Even if you do enter the class B w/o
clearance, which is not permitted, you're not going to get shot down
(under normal circumstances).

	- Andrew





FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 18:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] bbc

You can also watch the BBC World Service (and others) in streaming
Quicktime video. See http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/news/ for a listing.



On 9/12/01 at 5:07 PM -0400, Brian Wane wrote:

> When possible watch the bbc on cable channel 21. They give a lot
> more information and better perspectives. There were some chilling
> comments from people in Arab nations like Egypt that we are not seeing on
> American news stations.


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Robin-David Hammond
DATE: Wed 13:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Looking for Info on GGN and/or Internap


Bestweb also had an outage, i dont know if they are back yet. 


1 877 777 BWEB


ace is my primary ISP, they remained uninterupted.

robin-david hammond

my resume is hosted at web.bestweb.net/~muaddib/resume


 "One cannot guess the real difficulties of a problem before having solved it." 

-- Carl Ludwig Siegel


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 bwolin@... wrote:

> To: wwwac@...
> Subject: [wwwac] Looking for Info on GGN and/or Internap
> 
> Trying to get access to GGN and or Internap with absolutely no luck. any info regarding these ISPs would be great?






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 18:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] Bush Calls it "Act of War", Seeks "Any Amount" of
 Funding

On 9/12/01 at 5:17 PM -0400, Josh & Valerie McCormack wrote:

> Reagan made government sponsored assassination illegal.

Buhahaha!

Of course, he didn't act on it.


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Steven Clift
DATE: Wed 17:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] NYC Police/Fire Frequencies?


Can anyone help port these radio signals to the net???

Big file:
http://www.cityfreq.com/ny/newyork/

Steve

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Peter Shankman wrote:

> Does anyone have a list or a website of NYC Police/Fire/Emergency scanner 
> frequencies?
> 
> -Peter
> 
> 
> Peter Shankman
> peter@...
> www.shankman.com
> 
> "While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
> Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
> Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
> As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."






FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 18:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)


Israel has extensive experience with airline/airplane security after
experiencing a number of hijackings.

anyone who has ever flown on El Al, their national carrier knows their
security process is rigorous but highly effective.

the country will have weigh whether the extra cost and time required to
implement such security will be worth the effort. after yesterday's
attacks, i fail to see how we can afford to think otherwise.


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, David Glober wrote:

> ag797@... (Andrew Gideon):
> >Right.  All the talk about restricting local airspace or firing upon
> >civilian craft overflying NYC is pretty much nonsense in the norm.
> >But, hopefully, we will start putting air marshalls on aircraft
> >on a regular basis.  That little, low-tech solution would go a
> >long way towards eliminating the possibility of a repetition
> >of this incident.
> 
> 
> i've been wondering about this, and how many per plane, and what 
> training, and how to make sure it doesn't become something oppressive 
> instead of protective?






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 22:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

In article <a05010412b7c582c5ba0a@...>,
	glober-assoc@... (David Glober) writes:

> i've been wondering about this, and how many per plane, and what 
> training, and how to make sure it doesn't become something oppressive 
> instead of protective?

Good questions, but I've no idea.  Ask El Al.

However, someone posted something silly about "keystone cops".  I'm
not sure why one would assume this.  I suppose, though, that we
could be foolish enough to do this as poorly as we do airport
security.

But, hopefully, that too will be fixed.

	- Andrew





FROM: Martin T. Focazio
DATE: Wed 18:20
SUBJ: [wwwac] From NY1

Any word on logistics to get them there? Is there a drop-point in NJ 
for boat transport over? I can bring a carload of t-shirts over.


At 1:14 PM -0700 09-12-2001, Michael Pinto wrote:
>There is a need at Chelsea Piers for clean t-shirts and cel phone chargers.
>
>Michael
>
>=====
>M I C H A E L   J A M E S   P I N T O
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Support My Reading Habit: http://www.fanboy.com
>Where I Work: http://www.vm.com
>More About Me: http://www.michaelpinto.com 
>My Favorite Music: http://www.thefall.org
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Oliver Demasis
DATE: Wed 18:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] NYC Police/Fire Frequencies?

You can hear NYPD online here ...

http://www.policescanner.com/policeNYPD.stm

	- Oliver


-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Shankman <mailto:peter@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:20 PM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: [wwwac] NYC Police/Fire Frequencies?


Does anyone have a list or a website of NYC Police/Fire/Emergency scanner
frequencies?

-Peter


Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 18:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] lower manhattan closed tomorrow???

can anyone confirm this?  if not, is there word of when lower manhattan 
might reopen?

tia

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: Maya Sunpongco
DATE: Wed 22:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] Be Proud America..


> >  A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> >
> >
> > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
> >
> > America: The Good Neighbor.
> >
> >
> > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> > commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
> >
> > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
> > appreciated people on all the earth.
> >
> > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
> > Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> > forgave other billions in debts. None of these
> > countries is today paying even the interest on its
> > remaining debts to the United States.
> >
> > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> > it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
> > reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
> > of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> >
> > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
> > American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> > Nobody helped.
> >
> > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> > billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
> > newspapers in those countries are writing about the
> > decadent, warmongering Americans.
> >
> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that
> > is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
> > in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
> > Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
> > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
> > International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
> >
> > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
> > a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
> > technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
> > technocracy, and you get automobiles.
> >
> > You talk about American technocracy, and you find
> > men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
> > and safely home again.
> >
> > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
> > right in the store window for everybody to look at.
> > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
> > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
> > they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
> > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
> >
> > When the railways of France, Germany and India
> > were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
> > who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
> > the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> > old caboose. Both are still broke.
> >
> > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
> > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
> > me even one time when someone else raced to the
> > Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
> > help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
> >
> > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
> > to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
> > over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
> > those."
> >
> > Stand proud, America!


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 18:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:13:39 -0400
>From: Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...>
>
>At 09:04 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>>Final approach to the 4L and 4R at EWR passes within spitting
>>distance of downtown NYC.  You're not changing that unless
>>you move the runways.
>
>or restrict the runways.  this is not an unreasonable proposition.  we're 
>talking about preventing this kind of tragedy in the future.
>

Restrict them to/from/against whom or what?  Shall we put up a big
sign that says "terrorists not allowed to land here"?

Perhaps you mean to restrict use in a certain way?  Well, the way
a runway is used is based upon wind.  If the wind is coming from
one direction, you use the runway one way.  If the wind is coming
from the other direction, you use it the other way.

Let's take runway 4L/22R.  This is, in fact (so says my pedantic
instrument instructor {8^) actually two runways.  If you are
pointing your aircraft towards 220 degrees when using it, you're
on runway 22R.  If you're pointing towards 40 degrees, you're
on runway 4L.

[Actually, the L and R are used because there are two (or four {8^)
 parallel runways.  A little visualization shows that 4L becomes
 22R (and visa versa).]

Landings are done in as much of a headwind (or as little of a 
tailwind) as possible.

So if you decide to prohibit use of 22L and 22R at EWR (or 31L and
R at JFK), you're either (1) eliminating the use of an airport under
certain wind conditions or (2) forcing tailwind landings.  The latter
is not safe, unless we're going to extend the runways in length (and
I'm not sure how safe that would be anyway).

Takeoffs are similar (and in fact would be more likely to require
growth of the runways).

Another aspect is what's called a "missed approach".  This is
precisely what it sounds like.  The airplane decides, at the
last minute, to not land.  This can result from any one of many
possible causes.  To prohibit this would be, quite simply, to
crash some airplanes.

So what do you mean by "restrict the runways"?

	- Andrew








FROM: Steven Clift
DATE: Wed 17:34
SUBJ: [wwwac] NYC Support Lists?


I have found the exchange here on WWWAC and on the Sept11info lists to be
quite heartening.

Is anyone aware of NYC specific e-lists being used to coordinate
and involve people in relief and recovery efforts?  If not, anyone want to
start one and reach out to folks across NYC looking to help do there part?

Steven Clift
http://www.publicus.net






FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 15:37
SUBJ: [wwwac] 3D Model of Lower Manhattan?

millennium hotel
one liberty plaza
wtc building #5


Steven Clift <clift@...>:

>Which buildings are falling now?





FROM: Dube, Paul
DATE: Wed 18:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Give A Shout Out Please

</lurk mode>
I have avoided joining the many threads the past 2 days, mostly because I
have been busy at work (NJ is largely 'normal except for emotions). However,
I think it important to say that many of us are feeling anger, and other
emotions and that has a tendency to affect the tone of our posts.
While this is somewhat understandable, I would like to emphasize those post
that have called for compassion and clear thinking. As good as it may feel
to let that anger out, I feel that it is time to suppress the 'lashing out'
and talking about things out of our expertise. This type of 'discussion'
only fosters escalation and inflicting of new wounds atop those already
inflicted by the perpetrators. If we cannot pull together in times like this
and extend understanding and compassion for our fellow victims, then the
terrorists *have* won.

Please dial back the personal attacks and kick up the compassion and
assistance.
For the benefit of all.

Thank you for listening.
Paul





FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 18:43
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 06:08 PM 9/12/2001 -0700, Peter Shankman wrote:
>Not if they're trained not to open the door.
>
>I mean, it would be a shitty situation, a threat to the passengers or 
>flight attendants, for instance, but if they're trained not to open the 
>door, they won't open the door.

there's no guarantee that they won't open the door.  we should assume that 
the worse can happen and be prepared to deal with it.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: Scott Weikert
DATE: Wed 16:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

On top of that, it would be very simple to install closed-circuit tv in a
jet. Recessed fisheye camera above the cockpit door (to the main cabin) and
a small video screen inside the cockpit. Perhaps even multiple cameras
around the cabin and the flight crew could switch among them...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shankman" <peter@...>
To: "Duane Douglas" <ddouglas@...>; "Alon Koppel"
<wwwac@...>
Cc: "Andrew Gideon" <ag797@...>; "wwwac" <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


> Not if they're trained not to open the door.
>
> I mean, it would be a shitty situation, a threat to the passengers or
> flight attendants, for instance, but if they're trained not to open the
> door, they won't open the door.
>
> -Peter
>
> At 05:09 PM 9/12/01 -0400, Duane Douglas wrote:
> >it is too easy for a determined terrorist to trick the cockpit crew into
> >opening the the cockpit door.
>
>
>
> Peter Shankman
> peter@...
> www.shankman.com
>
> "While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
> Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
> Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
> As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."






FROM: Oliver Demasis
DATE: Wed 18:52
SUBJ: [wwwac] 3D Model of Lower Manhattan?

As for real 3D, you can use the Mapquest Aerial Photos ...

http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?link=btwn/twn-map_results&zoom_in=1&
uid=u9q4s9v9h7.8w5jd:tn14bxgrt&aphoto=1&SNVData=3mad3-96,hr%3br20u2g%3d%3dt5
uuag%24tw2%28%3a2ld%2bP%18X%17%15%2bEJ%28RJ%19%2b%16XNI_WC%28nu675%290r2u%3a
%10F%3dw7au0a_%29zr29ua_1.lq%286,qej%7cynbgmej,fwgf-d.vq7%3b2&pcat=

	- Oliver

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Clift <mailto:clift@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:01 PM
To: sept11info@...
Cc: wwwac@...
Subject: [wwwac] 3D Model of Lower Manhattan?



Anyone found a good one?  Which buildings are falling now?

What I found:
http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/World_Trade_Center.html
http://www.simcenter.org/Projects/Lower_Manhattan/body_lower_manhattan.html
http://www.geoplace.com/gw/1999/0399/399_3d.asp

Steven Clift
http://www.politicalbs.com






FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 18:52
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

> But Pres. Bush didn't salute an organized religion, he
> quoted the Bible. People will exploit whatever they can to justify their
own
> purposes.

exactly, though i don't think that's what you meant.







FROM: 
DATE: Wed 18:53
SUBJ: [wwwac] GOD

--part1_136.178c22f.28d1417d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    
    
Is it a problem to let people receive some comfort from their faith? 
Separation of church and state is a good thing, but this is life and death... 
When it comes down to it, do you believe in GOD or not? If you do, how could 
you trivialize it?

Jeff

--part1_136.178c22f.28d1417d_boundary--





FROM: Bill Volk
DATE: Wed 15:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

Saw this...

"Personally, I'd like to see three towers built in their place, with the
middle one much taller than the other two.  That way, it would look like a
giant middle finger, directed straight at the fuckers who did this."

Unknown.  (about the World trade center attack)





FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 19:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

you get off a plane in heathrow, you see lots of armed officers with machine
guns who stare you down cold.  you get off a plane in JFK, you may see one
or two officers with hand guns, probably chatting to themselves with no
concern for you.

this is my experience, and i doubt i'm alone in it.

--
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net







FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 23:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <3B9FDC9814A.B40DSCOTT@...>,
	scott@... (Scott Bowling) writes:

> Not something that can be "detected," per se, at least until the last
> minute. 

Like I said, depending upon circumstances, the "warning" will
be from about 100 to 240 seconds.  That's a very short time 
to make a very big decision.  This is real life; not some
movie.

Note that this incident didn't even use something as clever
as (for example) an emergency approach to EWR.  But as we
increase our guard, the criminals will increase their
cleverness.

In fact, I've a scenario where the warning would be far
shorter than 100 seconds.  It involves an emergency
approach to 22L or R at EWR, followed by a missed approach
and a complaint about loss of aileron control.  And I'm
sure a "professional" has even better ideas that I.

Are you going to shoot down that airplane in distress?

That Air Marshall idea looks pretty damned good to me.  In
addition to weapons, he or she (or they) should also have access
to some sort of communication, even if only a second command path
to the airplane's transponder.

	- Andrew





FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 19:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] Be Proud America..

this is being severely criticised on slashdot.
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21572&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thr
ead&pid=2286667#2286782

a lot of people made good points about many mistakes in this editorial.

--
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Maya Sunpongco" <msunpongco@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:33 PM
Subject: [wwwac] Be Proud America..


>
> > >  A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> > >
> > >
> > > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
> > >
> > > America: The Good Neighbor.
> > >
> > >
> > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> > > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> > > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> > > commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> > > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
> > >
> > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> > > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
> > > appreciated people on all the earth.
> > >
> > > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
> > > Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> > > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> > > forgave other billions in debts. None of these
> > > countries is today paying even the interest on its
> > > remaining debts to the United States.
> > >
> > > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> > > it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
> > > reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
> > > of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> > >
> > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > > United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
> > > American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> > > Nobody helped.
> > >
> > > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> > > billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
> > > newspapers in those countries are writing about the
> > > decadent, warmongering Americans.
> > >
> > > I'd like to see just one of those countries that
> > > is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
> > > in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
> > > Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
> > > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
> > > International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
> > >
> > > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
> > > a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
> > > technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
> > > technocracy, and you get automobiles.
> > >
> > > You talk about American technocracy, and you find
> > > men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
> > > and safely home again.
> > >
> > > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
> > > right in the store window for everybody to look at.
> > > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
> > > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
> > > they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
> > > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
> > >
> > > When the railways of France, Germany and India
> > > were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
> > > who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
> > > the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> > > old caboose. Both are still broke.
> > >
> > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
> > > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
> > > me even one time when someone else raced to the
> > > Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
> > > help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
> > >
> > > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> > > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > > kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> > > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
> > > to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
> > > over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
> > > those."
> > >
> > > Stand proud, America!
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp







FROM: Alon Koppel
DATE: Wed 17:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild them now

perhaps that=B9s true if they are equipped with real weapons, not simple
knives. and with the right instructions given to pilots after this, they
will not open the doors to anyone until landing.

Alon.


on 9/12/01 5:09 PM, Duane Douglas at ddouglas@... wrote:

> At 03:33 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Alon Koppel wrote:
>> In this case this will be the cockpit. On some airlines (El-Al for one) =
no
>> one can just walk in and take over the pilot's seat because they are loc=
ked
>> behind two metal doors that will only be opened from the inside. this is=
 the
>> simplest, most effective thing they can start doing right now on all pla=
nes.
>> I am not saying this will take down all terrorist attempts, but at least
>> it's a start that doesn't even disturb anyone's privacy.
>=20
> it is too easy for a determined terrorist to trick the cockpit crew into
> opening the the cockpit door.
>=20
> if (duane.douglas) { technologies =3D asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion
> && xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }






FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 19:06
SUBJ: [wwwac] Can anyone identify this building?

that's the North and South Towers and the black building is HSBC. God, this
is so unreal.

MD
----- Original Message -----
From: metrocake <metrocake@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:03 PM
Subject: [wwwac] Can anyone identify this building?


> Hi, everyone...
>
> Can anyone identify the third building in this
> picture?  I took this shot back in May; I cannot
> recall from which direction:
> http://www.metrocake.com/images/random/Dscn0027.jpg
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> -- Roe
>
> =====
> * m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
> http://www.metrocake.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Oliver Demasis
DATE: Wed 19:11
SUBJ: [wwwac] lower manhattan closed tomorrow???

	I called my buildings security office about 30 minutes ago (south end of
Broad Street) and they told me that NYPD informed them that they will be
continuing to keep everything closed south of 14th until at least the middle
of tomorrow. They closed NYSE for tomorrow again as well.

	- Oliver

-----Original Message-----
From: Duane Douglas <mailto:ddouglas@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:32 PM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: [wwwac] lower manhattan closed tomorrow???


can anyone confirm this?  if not, is there word of when lower manhattan
might reopen?

tia

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 19:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 06:33 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> >or restrict the runways.  this is not an unreasonable proposition.  we're
> >talking about preventing this kind of tragedy in the future.
> >
>
>Restrict them to/from/against whom or what?  Shall we put up a big
>sign that says "terrorists not allowed to land here"?
>
>Perhaps you mean to restrict use in a certain way?

correct.  restrict the runways from use by commercial aircraft.  of course, 
there should be exceptions in extraordinary circumstances.  the alternative 
is to close the runways entirely.  but this is an extreme measure that 
ought not be employed unless warranted.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: Jason Saito
DATE: Wed 16:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

In any case, that Nostradamus quatrain being bandied around the net 
is actually false. See below for more details:


FULL ARTICLE, directly related = 
http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm

Claim:   A 1654 Nostradamus prediction said World War III would begin 
with the fall of "two brothers," a reference to the destroyed World 
Trade Center towers.
Status:   False.
Example:   [Collected on the Internet, 2001]
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn 
apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will 
succumb, The third big war will begin when the big city is burning"
Nostradamus 1654

Nostradamus did not write the quatrain now being attributed to him. 
(One wonders how a guy who died in 1566 could have written an item 
identified as being penned in 1654 anyway.) It originated with a 
student at Brock University in Canada in the 1990s, appearing on a 
web page essay on Nostradamus. That particular quatrain was offered 
by the page's author, Neil Marshall, as a fabricated example to 
illustrate how easily an important-sounding prophecy can be crafted 
through the use of abstract imagery. He pointed out how the terms he 
used were so deliberately vague they could be interpreted to fit any 
number of cataclysmic events. (A dissertation on how a somewhat 
similar-sounding real prophesy of Nostradamus' has been interpreted 
in a variety of wildly different ways can be found here.)

It appears someone mistook Marshall's illustrative example for an 
actual Nostradamus prophecy and, not content to let well enough 
alone, added "The third big war will begin when the big city is 
burning." A fabrication was thus further fabricated.

FULL ARTICLE= http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm



More on Nostradamus - Very Informative
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm






At 6:52 PM -0400 9/12/01, daniel vena wrote:
>  > But Pres. Bush didn't salute an organized religion, he
>>  quoted the Bible. People will exploit whatever they can to justify their
>own
>>  purposes.
>
>exactly, though i don't think that's what you meant.
-- 

****************************************************

****************************************************





FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 19:26
SUBJ: [wwwac] blind nationalism

i've become increasingly concerned with the amount of blind nationalism
spewing from some people's mouths lately.  i've heard the phrase "sand
nigger" come from the mouths of people who would never call me a wop.  i saw
the media point fingers at the arabs before any information at all was
gathered.  this is scaring the hell out of me.

what have we become?

it shocks me that, simply because the media may have been right, they are
not going to be held responsible for what was blatant sensationalism
bordering on racism.  i'm surprised that no one remembers the media doing
this very same thing with oklahoma.  in all honesty, i feel that these
reactions are as un-american as anything i can think of.

please, take a minute to let your friends and family know that there are two
sides to every story.  we're being bombarded by pro-american propaganda
right now, and we must consider the source.  i do not suggest, by any means,
that we downplay the tragedy, however we must not let ourselves become the
monsters i feel we are becoming.

thank you.

--
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net









FROM: Tim
DATE: Wed 17:30
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

When Bush, on the day of this horrible tragedy quoted from the bible, he
further alienated me.  He further convinced me that his administration is
a sham which does not represent me.  He's welcome to believe what he wants,
but to try to unite a nation by quoting from a religious text is inappropriate
and unacceptable.

He's supposed to be unifying people, and I applaud the effort.  We *do* need
to stand together.  But by quoting the Bible he's made it so that I can't
stand with him.  He's betrayed me in my hour of need.

It's a question of what is appropriate for our highest elected official to
say in response to this.  It borders on racism, pitting the Good Christians
vs. The Bad Muslims.  Sickening, I think.

This is a diverse, and very secular nation.  He should have kept to appealing
to the strength and unity of the american people.  Not "their faith", or God.

-THL
At 06:16 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Seperation of Church and State was written to prevent the country from being
>church run, not to exclude religion from people's lives, wether they be in
>government or not.
>
>Also, don't lump everything together forbidding anyone from believing anything
>because someone who may have been an Islamic fundamentalist committed a 
>horible
>act. Yes, organized religion, organized by man, is succeptible to the
>cruelities of man. But Pres. Bush didn't salute an organized religion, he
>quoted the Bible. People will exploit whatever they can to justify their own
>purposes.
>
>Josh
>
>Robert Gruber wrote:
>
> > I have to say this Nostradamus crap circulating demeans this tragedy.
> > Even if he predicted it, which I think is a load of shit, so what?
> > The people are still dead. Should we be pouring over Nostradamus to
> > avoid further tragedy?
> >
> > I have little tolerance for the mention of religion now, particularly
> > by the president, as it seems that if it was Islamic fundamentalists,
> > then religion and the idea of dying to go to heaven was exploited by
> > whoever ordered this.
> >
> > If you want to be spiritual on your own, fine. But as far as I'm
> > concerned organized religion, of whatever type, has blood on it's
> > hands.
> >
> > One of the fundamental principles of the greatest democracy on earth,
> > that everyone is rallying around right now, is the separation of
> > church and state, and it is something that is eroded everytime I hear
> > the president launch into some religious epithet. We're not walking
> > down the valley of darkness, this is Wall Street and there are dead
> > people buried under rubble.
> >
> > I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it
> > is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that
> > is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world
> > leaders alike.
> >
> > Rob
> > --
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > Robert Gruber, Inc.
> > Web Development
> >
> > www.robertgruber.com
> > rob@...






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 19:32
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

Daniel:

Totally agreed. The first time I went to Italy, it blew my mind to see 
machine guns on officers. EVERYWHERE. Wasn't even anything out of the unusual.

Yesterday, when I was stuck at Newark, we saw SWAT armed with shotguns. 
Because something had happened.

-Peter

At 07:01 PM 9/12/01 -0400, you wrote:

>you get off a plane in heathrow, you see lots of armed officers with machine
>guns who stare you down cold.  you get off a plane in JFK, you may see one
>or two officers with hand guns, probably chatting to themselves with no
>concern for you.
>
>this is my experience, and i doubt i'm alone in it.



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: Scott Wickham
DATE: Wed 16:34
SUBJ: [wwwac] Any announcement about air quality warning

Here on the upper west side I can now smell the
buring.  Was wondering if any recommendations about
it.  

=====
Scott Wickham

74th st,201w apt#14K  Huge 1 Bedroom apt 
Check it out  http://www.webnyc.com    
for Sale by owner

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 19:36
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:17:46 -0400
>From: Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...>
>
>At 06:33 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Andrew Gideon wrote:
>> >or restrict the runways.  this is not an unreasonable proposition.  we're
>> >talking about preventing this kind of tragedy in the future.
>> >
>>
>>Restrict them to/from/against whom or what?  Shall we put up a big
>>sign that says "terrorists not allowed to land here"?
>>
>>Perhaps you mean to restrict use in a certain way?
>
>correct.  restrict the runways from use by commercial aircraft.  

I don't understand what you mean.  I'd guess that you're
suggesting that we permit only commercial traffic on those
runways, but the above text parses out differently.  It
reads as if you'd prohibit commercial craft from EWR and
JFK.

If that's your meaning, then you'd make a lot of corporate
and GA flyers very happy.  But the commercial airlines and
their passengers would probably have you killed.  Economically,
that's effectively identical to shutting down those airports.

So I'll assume below that you mean to say that you'd permit
only commercial traffic on those runways.  But recall that
the aircraft exploited in this incident were all commercial.

In fact, while GA and corporate traffic can use the large
airports like EWR, mostly we stay away.  The fees are very
high, and - especially for smaller craft - one must take
great care to avoid wakes (which will kill).

Also, it's pretty freaky being on final at 80 knots when
the aircraft behind you is unable to go slower than 170
knots, or some such.  That provides a significant pucker 
factor.

So your restriction would not accomplish much.  It would
probably be more effective to hang an anvil over the door
to the cockpit, so that the roadrunn^H^H^H^H^H^Hterrorist
would be knocked cold when breaking in.

	- Andrew







FROM: Kathy Forer
DATE: Wed 19:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] ALT parking?

Has anyone listening to radio or NY1 heard anything about alternate 
side of the street parking suspension? 1010wins.com still has no 
report.

(In the face of it, not the shadow)





FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 19:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


<<Then I think you are mad. You are just inviting someone to target it
again. And they will>>

Yes


That's the point.  What makes you think they are not going to target the
Empire State Building now, or the Grand Central.  Or the whole city.

Your a victem now George.  Your afraid to rebuild because your a defeated
person.



<<Having a building that size was sheer madness anyway>>

No it isn't....

<<Build a memorial and build smaller buildings across NYC.>>

No - this doesn't fix the scare left by the terrorists.

You are defeated, NYC is not.
-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 19:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

> Good questions, but I've no idea.  Ask El Al.

I'm all for putting air marshalls on planes. Good
ones, well paid, not like the poor prison security
guards who make minimum wage or barely above that.

After all, when's the last time you heard of an
El Al plane getting hijacked? It might cut down
on this air rage bullshit too. If people can't
behave themselves in the air, let's give them
something they will understand...a threat of
real force and real punishment.






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 20:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 07:36 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:17:46 -0400
> >From: Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...>
> >
> >At 06:33 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> >> >or restrict the runways.  this is not an unreasonable proposition.  we're
> >> >talking about preventing this kind of tragedy in the future.
> >> >
> >>
> >>Restrict them to/from/against whom or what?  Shall we put up a big
> >>sign that says "terrorists not allowed to land here"?
> >>
> >>Perhaps you mean to restrict use in a certain way?
> >
> >correct.  restrict the runways from use by commercial aircraft.
>
>I don't understand what you mean.  I'd guess that you're
>suggesting that we permit only commercial traffic on those
>runways, but the above text parses out differently.  It
>reads as if you'd prohibit commercial craft from EWR and
>JFK.
>
>If that's your meaning, then you'd make a lot of corporate
>and GA flyers very happy.  But the commercial airlines and
>their passengers would probably have you killed.  Economically,
>that's effectively identical to shutting down those airports.

guess what?  the airports ARE shut down.  i realize that this solution 
isn't economically prudent  but i hope that you agree that human life is 
more valuable than unrestricted air travel.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 19:59
SUBJ: [wwwac] ALT parking?

i cant believe this.....you're worried about alternate side parking?


----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy Forer <kef@...>
To: wwwac list <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:22 PM
Subject: [wwwac] ALT parking?


> Has anyone listening to radio or NY1 heard anything about alternate
> side of the street parking suspension? 1010wins.com still has no
> report.
>
> (In the face of it, not the shadow)





FROM: ujin_c
DATE: Wed 17:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] Be Proud America..

the orgin of the article.

http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/ccf/news/unique/american.html




----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel vena" <daniel@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] Be Proud America..


> this is being severely criticised on slashdot.
>
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21572&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thr
> ead&pid=2286667#2286782
>
> a lot of people made good points about many mistakes in this editorial.
>
> --
> _d.vena \\ www.vena.net
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maya Sunpongco" <msunpongco@...>
> To: <wwwac@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:33 PM
> Subject: [wwwac] Be Proud America..
>
>
> >
> > > >  A TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
> > > >
> > > > America: The Good Neighbor.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> > > > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> > > > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> > > > commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> > > > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
> > > >
> > > > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> > > > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
> > > > appreciated people on all the earth.
> > > >
> > > > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
> > > > Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> > > > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> > > > forgave other billions in debts. None of these
> > > > countries is today paying even the interest on its
> > > > remaining debts to the United States.
> > > >
> > > > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,
> > > > it was the Americans who propped it up, and their
> > > > reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets
> > > > of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> > > >
> > > > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
> > > > United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
> > > > American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> > > > Nobody helped.
> > > >
> > > > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> > > > billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now
> > > > newspapers in those countries are writing about the
> > > > decadent, warmongering Americans.
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to see just one of those countries that
> > > > is gloating over the erosion of the United States
> > > > dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country
> > > > in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
> > > > Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?
> > > > If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
> > > > International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
> > > >
> > > > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
> > > > a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
> > > > technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
> > > > technocracy, and you get automobiles.
> > > >
> > > > You talk about American technocracy, and you find
> > > > men on the moon -! not once, but several times -
> > > > and safely home again.
> > > >
> > > > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
> > > > right in the store window for everybody to look at.
> > > > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
> > > > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
> > > > they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
> > > > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
> > > >
> > > > When the railways of France, Germany and India
> > > > were breaking down through age, it was the Americans
> > > > who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and
> > > > the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> > > > old caboose. Both are still broke.
> > > >
> > > > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced
> > > > to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name
> > > > me even one time when someone else raced to the
> > > > Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
> > > > help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
> > > >
> > > > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> > > > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> > > > kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> > > > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
> > > > to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
> > > > over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of
> > > > those."
> > > >
> > > > Stand proud, America!
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp





FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 20:05
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now


<<  Even if you do enter the class B w/o
clearance, which is not permitted, you're not going to get shot down
(under normal circumstances).>>

That IS the problem.  Under normal circumstances, you should be shot down.

Airspace of Manhattan should be a strict no fly zone

	- Andrew


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Pame McMahon
DATE: Wed 20:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] ALT parking?

My reaction exactly. are you concerned that your prime-time shows aren't on
as well?

-----Original Message-----
From: mike dizon <mailto:mdizon_2000@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:00 PM
To: wwwac list; Kathy Forer
Subject: Re: [wwwac] ALT parking?


i cant believe this.....you're worried about alternate side parking?


----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy Forer <kef@...>
To: wwwac list <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:22 PM
Subject: [wwwac] ALT parking?


> Has anyone listening to radio or NY1 heard anything about alternate
> side of the street parking suspension? 1010wins.com still has no
> report.
>
> (In the face of it, not the shadow)





FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 20:10
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)


there are rumors that even some of the stewardesses on El Al planes are
trained to kill in order to add an additional element of surprise for
would-be highjackers. however, this might just be another urban myth.


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Amita Guha wrote:

> > Good questions, but I've no idea.  Ask El Al.
> 
> I'm all for putting air marshalls on planes. Good
> ones, well paid, not like the poor prison security
> guards who make minimum wage or barely above that.
> 
> After all, when's the last time you heard of an
> El Al plane getting hijacked? It might cut down
> on this air rage bullshit too. If people can't
> behave themselves in the air, let's give them
> something they will understand...a threat of
> real force and real punishment.






FROM: gabriel friedman
DATE: Wed 20:10
SUBJ: [wwwac] non-WTC injuries?

does anyone have any general information on injuries/fatalities among people
who worked in the buildings surrounding the towers? or any info on what sort
of damage has been done to buildings a few blocks away?

thanks.






FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 20:10
SUBJ: [wwwac] my new view

Here are before and after photos of
the southern view off my balcony:

http://www.dirtybackroad.com/photos/skyline.html






FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 20:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

That would be so cool, and I wouldn't be surprised.
After all, isn't every Israeli citizen required to spend
two years in the army?

> there are rumors that even some of the stewardesses on El Al planes are
> trained to kill in order to add an additional element of surprise for
> would-be highjackers. however, this might just be another urban myth.







FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:05:16 -0400
>From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...>
>
>
><<  Even if you do enter the class B w/o
>clearance, which is not permitted, you're not going to get shot down
>(under normal circumstances).>>
>
>That IS the problem.  Under normal circumstances, you should be shot down.
>
>Airspace of Manhattan should be a strict no fly zone
>

Of course, you say this with the same expertise, 
understanding, and accuracy of all your other claims 
with respect to aviation.

Unless you're planning to shut down JFK and EWR (and
probably LGA), you'll accomplish nothing with this, 
but make the job of ATC that much more difficult.

In fact, I'm not sure that your idea is even possible 
without at least a partial shutdown of JFK.  I'd need to
check some approach plates that I don't have here.

	- Andrew







FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 20:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:01:11 -0400
>From: Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...>
>>
>>If that's your meaning, then you'd make a lot of corporate
>>and GA flyers very happy.  But the commercial airlines and
>>their passengers would probably have you killed.  Economically,
>>that's effectively identical to shutting down those airports.
>
>guess what?  the airports ARE shut down.  i realize that this solution 
>isn't economically prudent  but i hope that you agree that human life is 
>more valuable than unrestricted air travel.

So you're proposing that we keep them that way?

	- Andrew







FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 20:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] ALT parking?

Hey, why should she get a ticket because she
wasn't informed? If she forgot about things
like this, she would be letting the terrorists
win...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mike dizon <mailto:mdizon_2000@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:00 PM
> To: wwwac list; Kathy Forer
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] ALT parking?
>
>
> i cant believe this.....you're worried about alternate side parking?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kathy Forer <kef@...>
> To: wwwac list <wwwac@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:22 PM
> Subject: [wwwac] ALT parking?
>
>
> > Has anyone listening to radio or NY1 heard anything about alternate
> > side of the street parking suspension? 1010wins.com still has no
> > report.
> >
> > (In the face of it, not the shadow)
>







FROM: Cindy Gonzalez
DATE: Wed 18:41
SUBJ: [wwwac] Lists of Survivors?

Does anyone have any information about any employees from a company called
General Telecom (email address "gentel.net") located in one of the World
Trade Center towers?

Specifically, I'm looking for a friend of mine, Joice Carpeneto, who worked
there, on the 83rd floor.

She called her mother to tell her they'd been hit by a plane and were
evacuating and no one has heard from her since.

Any info or lists on the net with survivors will be greatly appreciated by
her friends and family.

Thanks so much and bless you all,

Cindy






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 20:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

There are 40K planes out of NYC on any given day.


Ruben
____________________________

On 2001.09.12 19:56:21 -0400 Amita Guha wrote:
> Good questions, but I've no idea.  Ask El Al.

I'm all for putting air marshalls on planes. Good
ones, well paid, not like the poor prison security
guards who make minimum wage or barely above that.

After all, when's the last time you heard of an
El Al plane getting hijacked? It might cut down
on this air rage bullshit too. If people can't
behave themselves in the air, let's give them
something they will understand...a threat of
real force and real punishment.


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 20:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

> Airspace of Manhattan should be a strict no fly zone

Now that would really suck. I'm sure I'm not the
only one here  who has enjoyed the fantastic view of 
the city flying straight down the middle of
Manhattan. It is especially beautiful during early
morning flights. *sigh*

It would be a real shame to lose that,
though I can certainly see the reasoning behind it.






FROM: gabriel friedman
DATE: Wed 20:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] Lists of Survivors?

this may help...

http://safe.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php

> From: Cindy Gonzalez <texmex@...>
> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:41:39 -0400
> To: <wwwac@...>
> Subject: [wwwac] Lists of Survivors?
> 
> Does anyone have any information about any employees from a company called
> General Telecom (email address "gentel.net") located in one of the World
> Trade Center towers?
> 
> Specifically, I'm looking for a friend of mine, Joice Carpeneto, who worked
> there, on the 83rd floor.
> 
> She called her mother to tell her they'd been hit by a plane and were
> evacuating and no one has heard from her since.
> 
> Any info or lists on the net with survivors will be greatly appreciated by
> her friends and family.
> 
> Thanks so much and bless you all,
> 
> Cindy






FROM: Pame McMahon
DATE: Wed 20:35
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

you've got to be kidding me! Let me get this straight now. The world trade
center is GONE. Thousands of people are dead. US commecial flights with
PEOPLE on them were basically used as bombs. The pentagon was bombed and
almost a thousand people are thought dead there. We need to support our
government and our President so that they can seek out and destroy the
bastards responsible for this. AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT A BIBLE QUOTE?
You must be joking! Get some perspective will you!

Like it or not the majority of people in this country believe in the bible
(I personally do not - I think ALL religion is total BS) and if the
President wants to quote the bible to make people feel even slightly better
for a few seconds, so be it. let him. its not hurting you. he's not saying
if you don't believe it you can't live here. he's not forcing you to believe
it, or read it or anything else. SO SHUT UP ALREADY. and everyone who
believes in any religion believes in some sort of "god" whether they call
him/her that or not.

I've sat here all day and read post after post full of some of the most
ridiculos rhetoric. And I've been quiet. And every post I've read has made
me more and more sick to my stomach. But between you and the git who's
worried about parking I've had enough.

I'm unsubscribing from this list of unamerican complainer's who's only good
ideas in the last two days were to donate blood and offer one another
shelter. If we were to go to war I doubt any of you would volunteer for
military service. I suspect very few of you have ever served the military or
your country in any way. And obviously you don't give a damn about this
country - you'd rather sit at your computer terminals and spout off
nonsense.



-----Original Message-----
From: Tim <mailto:wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:30 PM
To: Josh & Valerie McCormack
Cc: wwwac@...
Subject: Re: [wwwac] Nostradamus


When Bush, on the day of this horrible tragedy quoted from the bible, he
further alienated me.  He further convinced me that his administration is
a sham which does not represent me.  He's welcome to believe what he wants,
but to try to unite a nation by quoting from a religious text is
inappropriate
and unacceptable.

He's supposed to be unifying people, and I applaud the effort.  We *do* need
to stand together.  But by quoting the Bible he's made it so that I can't
stand with him.  He's betrayed me in my hour of need.

It's a question of what is appropriate for our highest elected official to
say in response to this.  It borders on racism, pitting the Good Christians
vs. The Bad Muslims.  Sickening, I think.

This is a diverse, and very secular nation.  He should have kept to
appealing
to the strength and unity of the american people.  Not "their faith", or
God.

-THL
At 06:16 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>Seperation of Church and State was written to prevent the country from
being
>church run, not to exclude religion from people's lives, wether they be in
>government or not.
>
>Also, don't lump everything together forbidding anyone from believing
anything
>because someone who may have been an Islamic fundamentalist committed a
>horible
>act. Yes, organized religion, organized by man, is succeptible to the
>cruelities of man. But Pres. Bush didn't salute an organized religion, he
>quoted the Bible. People will exploit whatever they can to justify their
own
>purposes.
>
>Josh
>
>Robert Gruber wrote:
>
> > I have to say this Nostradamus crap circulating demeans this tragedy.
> > Even if he predicted it, which I think is a load of shit, so what?
> > The people are still dead. Should we be pouring over Nostradamus to
> > avoid further tragedy?
> >
> > I have little tolerance for the mention of religion now, particularly
> > by the president, as it seems that if it was Islamic fundamentalists,
> > then religion and the idea of dying to go to heaven was exploited by
> > whoever ordered this.
> >
> > If you want to be spiritual on your own, fine. But as far as I'm
> > concerned organized religion, of whatever type, has blood on it's
> > hands.
> >
> > One of the fundamental principles of the greatest democracy on earth,
> > that everyone is rallying around right now, is the separation of
> > church and state, and it is something that is eroded everytime I hear
> > the president launch into some religious epithet. We're not walking
> > down the valley of darkness, this is Wall Street and there are dead
> > people buried under rubble.
> >
> > I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it
> > is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that
> > is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world
> > leaders alike.
> >
> > Rob
> > --
> > _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
> > Robert Gruber, Inc.
> > Web Development
> >
> > www.robertgruber.com
> > rob@...






FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 20:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] non-WTC injuries?

At 08:10 PM 9/12/2001 +0000, gabriel friedman wrote:
>does anyone have any general information on injuries/fatalities among people
>who worked in the buildings surrounding the towers? or any info on what sort
>of damage has been done to buildings a few blocks away?

as best as i can tell from news reports, several people were killed by 
falling debris.  many people were injured by falling or flying 
debris.  many windows were blown out of surrounding buildings from the 
explosions.  thick soot and dust is everywhere for blocks around the 
wtc.  gas lines were ruptured.  i'm sure that a lot of untold damage has 
been done to the buildings around the wtc.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: sevanthi ragunathan
DATE: Thu 00:24
SUBJ: [wwwac] bbc

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Brian Wane" <bpwane@...>
>To: <wwwac@...>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:07 PM
>Subject: [wwwac] bbc
>
>
> > When possible watch the bbc on cable channel 21. They give a lot
> > more information and better perspectives. There were some chilling
> > comments from people in Arab nations like Egypt that we are not seeing 
>on
> > American news stations.

I second the recommendation wholeheartedly.  They were the only ones as far 
as I know to mention the US bombing of civilians in Sudan and Pakistan, not 
to mention the US funding of the Taliban.





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp






FROM: May S. Young
DATE: Wed 20:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance

Hello Fellow WWWAC's.

	I was just curious to see if there are any NYC or Federal based
emergency web sites that needs a hand with updating information on an
hourly (or less) basis.  I'm a web designer with HTML and Javascript
experience.

Any suggestions?

Thanx.

Regards,


May S. Young

h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
--------------------------------------------
graphics for web and multimedia

contact - may s. young
vox -  845 365 1903
email - may@...
URL - http://www.hiregun.com







FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 20:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

it is entirely american to question both the state and the media.  if we
deny eachother and ourselves this right, then we destroy the very foundation
this country was built on.

the only thing unamerican i'm seeing here is someone playing holier than
thou.

--
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Pame McMahon" <pame.mcmahon@...>
To: "Tim" <wwwac@...>; "Josh & Valerie
McCormack" <traveler@...>
Cc: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: [wwwac] Nostradamus


> you've got to be kidding me! Let me get this straight now. The world trade
> center is GONE. Thousands of people are dead. US commecial flights with
> PEOPLE on them were basically used as bombs. The pentagon was bombed and
> almost a thousand people are thought dead there. We need to support our
> government and our President so that they can seek out and destroy the
> bastards responsible for this. AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT A BIBLE QUOTE?
> You must be joking! Get some perspective will you!
>
> Like it or not the majority of people in this country believe in the bible
> (I personally do not - I think ALL religion is total BS) and if the
> President wants to quote the bible to make people feel even slightly
better
> for a few seconds, so be it. let him. its not hurting you. he's not saying
> if you don't believe it you can't live here. he's not forcing you to
believe
> it, or read it or anything else. SO SHUT UP ALREADY. and everyone who
> believes in any religion believes in some sort of "god" whether they call
> him/her that or not.
>
> I've sat here all day and read post after post full of some of the most
> ridiculos rhetoric. And I've been quiet. And every post I've read has made
> me more and more sick to my stomach. But between you and the git who's
> worried about parking I've had enough.
>
> I'm unsubscribing from this list of unamerican complainer's who's only
good
> ideas in the last two days were to donate blood and offer one another
> shelter. If we were to go to war I doubt any of you would volunteer for
> military service. I suspect very few of you have ever served the military
or
> your country in any way. And obviously you don't give a damn about this
> country - you'd rather sit at your computer terminals and spout off
> nonsense.







FROM: Duane Douglas
DATE: Wed 20:29
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 08:14 PM 9/12/2001 -0400, Andrew Gideon wrote:
> >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:01:11 -0400
> >From: Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...>
> >>
> >>If that's your meaning, then you'd make a lot of corporate
> >>and GA flyers very happy.  But the commercial airlines and
> >>their passengers would probably have you killed.  Economically,
> >>that's effectively identical to shutting down those airports.
> >
> >guess what?  the airports ARE shut down.  i realize that this solution
> >isn't economically prudent  but i hope that you agree that human life is
> >more valuable than unrestricted air travel.
>
>So you're proposing that we keep them that way?

no.  but you suggest that restricting runway use is tantamount to closing 
the airports.  i'm don't know if this is true.  i believe that some runway 
use should be restricted from commercial air traffic (with exceptions for 
extraordinary circumstances).  i don't know enough about the 3 major area 
airports to propose a plan as to how this should be done.

if (duane.douglas) { technologies = asp && php && cgi_perl && cold fusion 
&& xml && xsl && sql server && mysql && javascript }





FROM: Mark Frieser
DATE: Wed 20:29
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

We're talking Commercial Jets... The number is much less


On 12-09-2001 20:19, "Brooklyn Linux Solutions" <ruben@...> wrote:

> There are 40K planes out of NYC on any given day.
> 
> 
> Ruben
> ____________________________
> 
> On 2001.09.12 19:56:21 -0400 Amita Guha wrote:
>> Good questions, but I've no idea.  Ask El Al.
> 
> I'm all for putting air marshalls on planes. Good
> ones, well paid, not like the poor prison security
> guards who make minimum wage or barely above that.
> 
> After all, when's the last time you heard of an
> El Al plane getting hijacked? It might cut down
> on this air rage bullshit too. If people can't
> behave themselves in the air, let's give them
> something they will understand...a threat of
> real force and real punishment.
> 






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 20:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

There is still permitted Choppers over the perphery.  no planes.
Certainly no Commercial Jet Liners below a resonable hieght.

I've never seens a plane fly over head in Manhattan

It's just a matter of keeping planes on the correct routes, or shoot them
down.

Air Space above NYC and Mnahattan is controlled.  Now it need to be
controlled by force.

But 
On 2001.09.12 20:21:02 -0400 Amita Guha wrote:
> Airspace of Manhattan should be a strict no fly zone

Now that would really suck. I'm sure I'm not the
only one here  who has enjoyed the fantastic view of 
the city flying straight down the middle of
Manhattan. It is especially beautiful during early
morning flights. *sigh*

It would be a real shame to lose that,
though I can certainly see the reasoning behind it.


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Steven Clift
DATE: Wed 19:38
SUBJ: [wwwac] Idea - Our flag was still standing


How about an American flag on a black background with the words "still
standing" as an icon people can put other their web sites?

Sort of like the blue ribbon campaign for free speech online -
http://www.eff.org/br/ .

I have no graphics art skill, if you do, send me <clift@...> your
*public domain* version or put it up in jpeg here:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/sept11info/lst
(Need to be sept11info yahogroups member to upload.)

StevenClift
http://www.politicalbs.com






FROM: David Glober
DATE: Wed 17:41
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

the point about the bible quotes is well made. one side quotes the 
koran and says lets be the good guys and fight those evil americans. 
we quote the bible and says lets be the good guys and fight those 
evil arabs. the person complaining about pointing this out seems to 
want to be caught up in this posturing.

i'm in favor of protecting and defending, as well as carefully reflecting.

dg



"daniel vena" <daniel@...>

>it is entirely american to question both the state and the media.  if we
>deny eachother and ourselves this right, then we destroy the very foundation
>this country was built on.
>
>the only thing unamerican i'm seeing here is someone playing holier than thou.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Pame McMahon" <pame.mcmahon@...>
>To: "Tim" <wwwac@...>; "Josh & Valerie
>McCormack" <traveler@...>
>Cc: <wwwac@...>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:35 PM
>Subject: RE: [wwwac] Nostradamus
>
>  > you've got to be kidding me! Let me get this straight now. The world trade
>>  center is GONE. Thousands of people are dead. US commecial flights with
>>  PEOPLE on them were basically used as bombs. The pentagon was bombed and
>>  almost a thousand people are thought dead there. We need to support our
>>  government and our President so that they can seek out and destroy the
>>  bastards responsible for this. AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT A BIBLE QUOTE?
>>  You must be joking! Get some perspective will you!
>>
>>  Like it or not the majority of people in this country believe in the bible
>>  (I personally do not - I think ALL religion is total BS) and if the
>  > President wants to quote the bible to make people feel even slightly better
>>  for a few seconds, so be it. let him. its not hurting you. he's not saying
>  > if you don't believe it you can't live here. he's not forcing you 
>to believe
>  > it, or read it or anything else. SO SHUT UP ALREADY. and everyone who
>>  believes in any religion believes in some sort of "god" whether they call
>>  him/her that or not.
>>
>>  I've sat here all day and read post after post full of some of the most
>>  ridiculos rhetoric. And I've been quiet. And every post I've read has made
>>  me more and more sick to my stomach. But between you and the git who's
>>  worried about parking I've had enough.
>>
>  > I'm unsubscribing from this list of unamerican complainer's who's only good
>  > ideas in the last two days were to donate blood and offer one another
>>  shelter. If we were to go to war I doubt any of you would volunteer for
>  > military service. I suspect very few of you have ever served the 
>military or
>  > your country in any way. And obviously you don't give a damn about this
>>  country - you'd rather sit at your computer terminals and spout off
>  > nonsense.





FROM: Steven Clift
DATE: Wed 19:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] [sept11info] Re: "I'm Okay" Message Center (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 00:06:49 -0000
From: Peter Kaminski <kaminski@...>
Reply-To: sept11info@...
To: sept11info@...
Subject: [sept11info] Re: "I'm Okay" Message Center

--- In sept11info@... David Erickson wrote:

> can add their name to lists of survivors in NY, DC, and PA. See:
> http://okay.prodigy.net

There are a couple others:

http://safe.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php 
http://www.viexpo.com/dmstest/america.html 
http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html 

I'm keeping  a list (which others can update or email me to update) 
at:

http://www.istori.com/cgi-bin/wiki?September11/WebContactLists

Pete
http://www.istori.com/peterkaminski/



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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Discussion homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sept11info

For more information, contact list facilitator Andy Carvin at acarvin@... 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 








FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 20:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now (air marshalls)

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:56:21 -0400
"Amita Guha" <bfift2girl@...> wrote:

> > Good questions, but I've no idea.  Ask El Al.
> 
> I'm all for putting air marshalls on planes. Good
> ones, well paid, not like the poor prison security
> guards who make minimum wage or barely above that.
> 
Well, I've just heard a report that the federal Air Marshal program will
be expanded a tiny bit to include some domestic flights. Of course, the
news people called it the Sky Marshal program, but that was
renamed/replaced when the current program was created in 85.

One aging blurb about the program:

http://www.faa.gov/apa/Factsheet/2000/fact4Aug.htm

But putting even one such well- -trained and -paid person on each and
every commercial passenger aircraft out there would cost a bundle. MAybe
that's a cost we'll bear, but from the complaints about airfares I've
heard for years, I wonder...

Of course, this doesn't do anything to avoid the use of a privately
chartered or owned plane either. I suppose someone like, just for an
example, bin Laden, with his alleged money and resources, to fund the
purchase of a cargo jet that would be used to wreak havoc anywhere near
where there's an airport. Good thing such people apparently either don't
have access to nuclear weapons or haven't managed to bring them into the
country. With 8+ million people boppin' 'round NYC, things could be much
worse. I'm screaming inside at how bad it is now. Of course, I wouldn't
survive the worst-case scenario. It's really quite mortifying to think
that there are people in this world capable of such things, and that
many around me might not be much better. Seems far too easy to
objectify, vilify and otherwise set out to destroy others.

Trying times test our mettle, and I hope we do not find ourselves
lacking in the face of this horror.

Scott






FROM: Robert Gruber
DATE: Wed 21:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

At 6:16 PM -0400 9/12/01, Josh & Valerie McCormack wrote:
>Seperation of Church and State was written to prevent the country from being
>church run, not to exclude religion from people's lives, wether they be in
>government or not.

I'm not asking to exclude religion from people's lives. Only from the 
government. This is an important distinction.  Freedom of religion 
allows you to believe whatever you like and worship freely. 
Restricting the govenment from participating in this PROTECTS this 
freedom.

>But Pres. Bush didn't salute an organized religion, he
>quoted the Bible. People will exploit whatever they can to justify their own
>purposes.

Which is exactly what Bush was doing as well. Exploiting religion for 
his own purposes, however noble. To band Americans together against 
Another.
Are you saying the bible is universal and not part of an organized religion?

I think it is the responsibility of our elected officials to be 
vigilant in not inflicting their own religious beliefs on the nation. 
Particularly at a time like this.

As much as I hate to say it, Guliani is doing a great job of giving 
information, comfort and help to the city without ever resorting to 
religion. I take much greater comfort in his efforts and his demeaner 
in this matter than I do in the Presidents.

At 8:35 PM -0400 9/12/01, Pame McMahon wrote:
>I'm unsubscribing from this list of unamerican complainer's who's only good
>ideas in the last two days were to donate blood and offer one another
>shelter. If we were to go to war I doubt any of you would volunteer for
>military service. I suspect very few of you have ever served the military or
>your country in any way. And obviously you don't give a damn about this
>country - you'd rather sit at your computer terminals and spout off
>nonsense.

As to the comments about "unAmerican complainers" I think part of the 
thing that everyone is celebrating about America during this time of 
crisis is the freedom and democracy we have as Americans. This is 
precisely what we want to protect and defend and assert to the world.

We can feel for the victims, we can help in any way we can and we can 
also work to make sure that America stays true to the values that 
everyone claims to love so much, among which are freedom of speech, 
freedom of religion and seperation of church and state. These values 
are AMERICA as much as two large financial buildings. Maintaining 
these values during a time when "patriotic" zealots are calling for 
us to bomb the hell out of anyone of Muslim faith or of Arab descent 
is at least as important as giving blood or volunteering for military 
service. This is when democracy can easily sleep into fascism.

Unfortunately you are unsubscribed and won't read this.


Rob
-- 
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
Robert Gruber, Inc.
Web Development

www.robertgruber.com
rob@...





FROM: 
DATE: Wed 20:04
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?

A good friend of mine is looking for his brother-in-law who was on the 110
floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know what this means, but
since there's a family looking for him, can someone give me #s of
hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other emergency numbers?
Please.






FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 21:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance

you are no better than the looters in Brooklyn

----- Original Message -----
From: May S. Young <may@...>
To: WWWAC Listserve <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:28 PM
Subject: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance


> Hello Fellow WWWAC's.
>
> I was just curious to see if there are any NYC or Federal based
> emergency web sites that needs a hand with updating information on an
> hourly (or less) basis.  I'm a web designer with HTML and Javascript
> experience.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Thanx.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> May S. Young
>
> h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
> --------------------------------------------
> graphics for web and multimedia
>
> contact - may s. young
> vox -  845 365 1903
> email - may@...
> URL - http://www.hiregun.com





FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 21:13
SUBJ: [wwwac] Update: the Iraq connection.

http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/me_israel_09_12.html

Well, a lot of people have been waiting to hear this one.  Israeli
intelligence finds that Iraq recruited and financed Osama Bin Laden for
yesterday's attack.

In other news, the Taliban has reportedly placed Bin Laden under house
arrest for violating a condition of his asylum requiring that he not
organize any terrorist acts while under their protection.

--
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net









FROM: metrocake
DATE: Wed 18:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?


--- grimmwerks@... wrote:
> A good friend of mine is looking for his
> brother-in-law who was on the 110
> floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know
> what this means, but
> since there's a family looking for him, can someone
> give me #s of
> hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other
> emergency numbers?
> Please.
> 


=====
* m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
http://www.metrocake.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: May S. Young
DATE: Wed 21:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance

Excuse me Mike, how do you equate me with a looter?  Just because I wanted
to volunteer that makes me a "looter" in your eyes?

YOU MAKE ME SICK.

 >you are no better than the looters in Brooklyn
>

h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
--------------------------------------------
graphics for web and multimedia

contact - may s. young
vox -  845 365 1903
email - may@...
URL - http://www.hiregun.com







FROM: 
DATE: Wed 20:14
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance


Perhaps she was donating her time.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, mike dizon wrote:

> you are no better than the looters in Brooklyn
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: May S. Young <may@...>
> To: WWWAC Listserve <wwwac@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:28 PM
> Subject: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance
> 
> 
> > Hello Fellow WWWAC's.
> >
> > I was just curious to see if there are any NYC or Federal based
> > emergency web sites that needs a hand with updating information on an
> > hourly (or less) basis.  I'm a web designer with HTML and Javascript
> > experience.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Thanx.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > May S. Young
> >
> > h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
> > --------------------------------------------
> > graphics for web and multimedia
> >
> > contact - may s. young
> > vox -  845 365 1903
> > email - may@...
> > URL - http://www.hiregun.com






FROM: Jen Runne
DATE: Wed 21:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] Surreal Experience Getting in and Out of Manhattan



Earlier today I asked Mike Pinto to put up a post about the need for Tshirts
and cell phone chargers at Chelsea Piers.  Since my local blood center was
swamped, I grabbed my metrocard and two BAGS full of brand new tradeshow T's
(about 60 shirts in all) and headed to the 4.

It zoomed right from Bklyn Heights to 14th, no intermediary stops.

Took the L to West 14th and started going North.

Then the surrealism began.

To make a long post short.....I have never seen so many cops in one
place....and such an outpouring of kindness and help by New Yorkers.  

There was a LINE just to DONATE stuff.

Restaurants gave away food to emergency workers.  Deer Park had donated
thousands of gallons of water.  

Donations were made in an orderly fashion, and all bags were checked for
explosives, etc..order was maintained.

Then I made a great decision--instead of getting back in the subway, I thought
I should walk south to the Brooklyn Bridge and go home that way.

On the way home, the West Side Highway was packed with spectators--CHEERING
AND SHOUTING and CLAPPING for all of the emergency vehicles that came through
and holding up signs saying things like "OUR HEROS" and "NY's Finest!"

It was wonderful....no shouts for revenge, no hatred......just applause for
the heros.

I continued south on the West Side until I was forced to turn
inwards.....another puff of smoke--the remains of Tower One had gone down, and
I knew that I was doing the right thing by not getting into the subway.  Huge
trucks carrying bright orange support columns drove through in a huge convoy.

Even that far north, the air stank of sulphur--but not as bad as the inside of
my apartment in the Heights.

I cut east along Houston Street.....the Williamsburg Bridge was open to peds,
but I didn't want to get back in that far with the posibillity of no land
transport home.

I continued south, again, the same scene everywhere....tons of cops,
ambulences, and rescue vehicles, and local generosity pouring out.......

Along Houston, I was told that I would have to walk all the way to the FDR to
pick up the Brooklyn Bridge IF it was open--ditto for Manhattan Bridge....they
were not letting nonresidents cut into Chinatown.....

Finally, I found a cop who let me through after he peeked in my bag and
checked my driver's license.  The Manhattan Bridge walkway looked dubious so I
doubled back towards the Brooklyn Bridge entrance near One Police Plaza,
knowing full well that there was a 99% chance I'd be sent back....I began to
think about my pal who lives on Avenue A and his spare room.

Gradually, more smoke/dust appeared.....huge numbers of emergency workers and
cops appeared as I reached the epicenter....fresh ash/dust was falling; pieces
of burn paper; tax forms, resumes, bits of photos, business cards, etc....all
scorched.  No particluate of anything heavy bigger than a cracker crumb.

Finally, when I got to literally within 50 yards of One Police Plaza, I begged
a cop to let me on the bridge if it was safe, and showed my ID again.  He
walked me over to a little side entrance--it was like the steps of a medieval
castle; almost never used.  There  were very few civilians left on the
bridge...as more and more uniformed workers and soldiers (yes as in US Army)
appeared, I got nervous--that one cop who let me up knew I was there, but what
if someone else didn't?  For two seconds I was afraid of being in the wrong
place at the wrong time.  I did NOT break into a run but my brisk walk would
make any gym instructor proud.

More smoke started to pour out of Ground Zero as I went home....I picked up my
pace.

I noticed one airplane.  One in the sky.  It was coming towards the bridge.  

Then I really panicked and walked even faster....false alarm, but if they shot
that thing out of the sky I didn't want to be under it.

I had stopped checking what time it was, but I figure it took me about 4 hours
to get home.  I had walked around pretty  much the long way from Chelsea to
the bridge.  On the Promenade, memorials have already been set up....

Now, typing, I hear that two more buildings have collapsed.

I still say that this is the greatest city in the greatest country on earth.

I will always miss my World Trade Center.....in troubled sleep last night (my
sinuses and my nerves are shot to royal hell) I dreamt of it.

I feel like I lost two family members.

Give Blood, give stuff, give what you can, and remember......WE WILL COME
THROUGH THIS.  

G-d Bless America.

---Jen Runne





--

-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
       V A N G U A R D   M E D I A   C O R P O R A T I O N
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ http://www.vm.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-





FROM: Oliver Demasis
DATE: Wed 21:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?

Various #'s from MSNBC ...

If you are in one of the attack areas and in need of assistance, contact
FEMA at 1-800-426-9029

The Justice Department's Office of Victims of Crime established a hotline
for families seeking information about victims and survivors. The number is
1-800-331-0075.

Families of American Airlines passengers can contact the airline at
1-800-245-0999.

Families of United Airlines passengers can contact the airline at
1-800-932-8555.

Navy and Marine personnel who were in the building at the time of the attack
can call 1-877-663-6772 number so that the services can put together a
roster. Army personnel assigned to the Pentagon should call 1-800-984-8523.

Family members of military personnel seeking information should call
1-800-984-8523 (Army), 1-877-663-6772 (Navy and Marine Corps.),
1-800-253-9276 (Air Force).

Morgan Stanley has an emergency contact phone number. Employees and their
families can call 1-888-883-4391.

Cantor Fitzgerald Inc. has an emergency contact phone number. Employees and
their families can call 203-662-3600.

Aon encourages all families of its 1100 employees who worked in World Trade
Center Tower 2 to call 1-866-256-4154.

FirstGov has a comprehensive list of U.S. government resources and
information at http://www.firstgov.gov/featured/usgresponse.html

Web sites are available for people who still haven't been able to contact
their family members:
http://okay.prodigy.net/,
http://www.viexpo.com/dmstest/america.html,
http://safe.millennium.berkeley.edu/find.php,
http://www.bostoncoop.net:8080/SeptEleven?PersonalStatus



-----Original Message-----
From: grimmwerks@... <mailto:grimmwerks@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:04 PM
To: wwwac@...
Subject: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?


A good friend of mine is looking for his brother-in-law who was on the 110
floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know what this means, but
since there's a family looking for him, can someone give me #s of
hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other emergency numbers?
Please.






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 21:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

Are you kidding? I live on 43rd St on the West Side, and every single 
night, there's a line of planes going into LaGuardia, into Newark, etc... 
Planes fly over the city ALL the time. I've done 30 second exposures with 
my camera, and you'll see 3, 4, 5, even six lines of light.

-Peter

At 08:28 PM 9/12/01 -0400, you wrote:
>I've never seens a plane fly over head in Manhattan
>
>It's just a matter of keeping planes on the correct routes, or shoot them
>down.
>
>Air Space above NYC and Mnahattan is controlled.  Now it need to be
>controlled by force.



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 21:17
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance

I apologize, i misinterpreted your email. You have to understand what I'm
feeling. Once again, I apologize. I actually thought you said you were
willing to work for an hourly rate.





FROM: David W. Fenton
DATE: Wed 19:50
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:14:16 -0500, Mikki Monkolchayut <mikki@...> wrpte"
> I want to give blood, am O+, and that is in high demand.
> Traveled a lot so I maybe refused, before I stand on a long line, can 
> someone tell me who would be refused.
> 
> Drug users
> tatoos,
> travelers, esp. 3rd world nations and mad cow infected areas
> over 125lbs
> 
> so who is left to give blood???

If you are a gay man who has had sex with another man since 1977, you 
would be rejected.

But that's not new -- it's been that way since about 1983, and the 
Red Cross refuses to reconsider the nature of the restriction.

It is, of course, an outrage, but one that most people seem to find 
acceptable.

If you don't see the outrage, consider that a heterosexual female who 
engages in unsafe sex with HIV+ men would not be rejected, whereas a 
gay man, regardless of sexual practices or HIV status, will be 
rejected *not because of dangerous sex practices* but on the basis of 
his being gay. It's a double standard: gay men are rejected just 
because they are gay, while heterosexuals are considered on the basis 
of practices.

-- 
David W. Fenton                         |        http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
David Fenton Associates                 |        http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc





FROM: Scott Rompala
DATE: Wed 21:16
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?

The New School has consolidated lists of all hospital admissions -- updated 
every hour.  Don't have their number, but they are at 12th btwn 5-6 , i think.

-s

At 08:04 PM 9/12/01 -0500, grimmwerks@... wrote:
>A good friend of mine is looking for his brother-in-law who was on the 110
>floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know what this means, but
>since there's a family looking for him, can someone give me #s of
>hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other emergency numbers?
>Please.






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 21:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

On 9/12/01 at 5:10 PM -0500, <grimmwerks@...> wrote:

>>From a Christian perspective, with the years of 'saving' others, the Holy
> Wars, the Crusades...if there was a Christ, I swear he'd be shaking his
> head saying "you dudes just didn't get it".

He's looking down at all the folks carrying crosses around their necks and
is thinking, "Hell, I ain't coming back as long as these guys are still
wearing torture devices as jewelry."

Christianity's dirty little secret: Christ wasn't here to save us, he was
here to be saved BY us. And like so many innocent scapegoats before and
after, we let him down.



-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 21:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At a Height.


BTW - The route to Laugaurdia is around Manhattan over the Triboro Brigde
into 
LI Sound to Lagardia...

It is not - cross Midtwon Manhattan at low height.


Ruben

On 2001.09.13 00:21:42 -0400 Peter Shankman wrote:
Are you kidding? I live on 43rd St on the West Side, and every single 
night, there's a line of planes going into LaGuardia, into Newark, etc... 
Planes fly over the city ALL the time. I've done 30 second exposures with 
my camera, and you'll see 3, 4, 5, even six lines of light.

-Peter

At 08:28 PM 9/12/01 -0400, you wrote:
>I've never seens a plane fly over head in Manhattan
>
>It's just a matter of keeping planes on the correct routes, or shoot them
>down.
>
>Air Space above NYC and Mnahattan is controlled.  Now it need to be
>controlled by force.



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 21:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

OK, perhaps they're going into Newark, then. But I can tell you, looking 
North out of my 25th floor window, there are lines of planes. Lines. All 
night, up until late, every night. First time visitors to my apartment 
always seem to notice it.

-Peter

At 09:21 PM 9/12/01 -0400, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
>At a Height.
>
>
>BTW - The route to Laugaurdia is around Manhattan over the Triboro Brigde
>into
>LI Sound to Lagardia...
>
>It is not - cross Midtwon Manhattan at low height.
>
>
>Ruben
>
>On 2001.09.13 00:21:42 -0400 Peter Shankman wrote:
>Are you kidding? I live on 43rd St on the West Side, and every single
>night, there's a line of planes going into LaGuardia, into Newark, etc...
>Planes fly over the city ALL the time. I've done 30 second exposures with
>my camera, and you'll see 3, 4, 5, even six lines of light.
>
>-Peter
>
>At 08:28 PM 9/12/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >I've never seens a plane fly over head in Manhattan
> >
> >It's just a matter of keeping planes on the correct routes, or shoot them
> >down.
> >
> >Air Space above NYC and Mnahattan is controlled.  Now it need to be
> >controlled by force.
>
>
>
>Peter Shankman
>peter@...
>www.shankman.com
>
>"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
>Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
>Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
>As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."
>
>
>--
>Brooklyn Linux Solutions
>http://www.mrbrklyn.com
>http://www.brooklynonline.com
>
>1-718-382-5752



Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: May S. Young
DATE: Wed 21:25
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance

For those people who thought that my post implied that I was looking for work,
THIS IS CERTAINLY NOT THE CASE.

I JUST WANT TO VOLUNTEER MY TIME.

If anyone can refer me to any city or federal agency web sites that needs
VOLUNTEERS to update information on their sites, please let me know.

I apologize for any confusion.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,


May S. Young

h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
--------------------------------------------
graphics for web and multimedia

contact - may s. young
vox -  845 365 1903
email - may@...
URL - http://www.hiregun.com







FROM: Wendy Siegel
DATE: Wed 21:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?

I complied this a little earlier today -- some information might be repeated.

EMERGENCY CONTACT INFORMATION:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/contacts.html

Also, Mental Health Hotline 212 604-8220

There are 12 shelters being provided in schools throughout the NYC 
area.  Some are:

Washington Irving
Fashion Industry
Jr. High School 22
Curtis High School

Other Helpful Information:

      Phone Numbers of Port Authority
      The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has opened phone lines 
for employees who want to know where to report and
      family members who want information about loved ones. Employees 
should call: 973 565 5501, 973 565 5502, 973 565 5503
      and 973 565 5504. Family members of agency workers can call 973 565 
5505, 973 565 5506, and 973 565 5507.

      Blood Donations Sought

      New York City is anticipating a severe blood-supply shortage in the 
wake of the World Trade Center tragedy. To offer
      assistance to the American Red Cross, call 1-800-HELP NOW. To donate 
blood in the Greater New York area, call the New
      York Blood Center at 1-800-933-BLOOD for locations.

      The American Red Cross is opening four shelters on Long Island for 
people who work on the island but live in Manhattan and
      can't get back home tonight.

      Red Cross Spokesman Jim Green says the drop-in centers are:
      Nassau Community College gymnasium, 1 Education Drive, Garden City.
      Long Island University, C.W. Post Campus at the Interfaith Chapel at 
720 Northern Boulevard, Brookville.
      Southside Senior High School at 140 Shepherd St., Rockville Centre.
      Plainedge High School at Wyngate and Peony drives in North Massapequa.
      Saint Vincent's Hospital and Medical Center set up a mental health 
crisis service for people experiencing severe emotional
      distress and trauma from the disaster. In Manhattan, call 
212-604-8220. In Westchester, call 914-925-5320. In Staten Island,
      call 718-354-6300.

      In New Jersey, people who need information about donating blood can 
call 888 BLOOD-88.

      Doctors, Nurses Needed

      Saint Vincents Hospital says it needs help. The hospital is putting 
out a call to doctors and nurses around the city.

      Doctors are being asked to call 212-604-3850

      Nurses are being asked to call 212-604-8474

      The hospital has set up a Mental Health help-line at 212-604-8220.

      And the hospital has a family information area at the hospital on 
Seventh Avenue, between 11th and 12th Street.

      The information number is 212- 604-7285.

    Information Lines For Relatives Of People On Flights

      Relatives of American Airlines passengers seeking information about 
relatives may call 1-800-245-0999.

      United Airlines says friends or family members seeking information on 
flights may call 1-800-932-8555. United also said it
      would post any information it has on its Web site, www.united.com.

      A number of social help and mental health agencies have set up 
telephone numbers for people to get information or
      counseling.

      People searching for missing loved ones were directed to call NYC 
Bureau of Labs, 212-447-2998.

	Hope this helps.  Wendy
.
At 09:04 PM 9/12/01, you wrote:
A good friend of mine is looking for his brother-in-law who was on the 110
floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know what this means, but
since there's a family looking for him, can someone give me #s of
hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other emergency numbers?
Please.







FROM: May S. Young
DATE: Wed 21:27
SUBJ: [wwwac] Emergency Web Site Assistance

Dear Mike,


Apologies accepted.


Warmest Regards,


May S.Young

>I apologize, i misinterpreted your email. You have to understand what I'm
>feeling. Once again, I apologize. I actually thought you said you were
>willing to work for an hourly rate.


h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
--------------------------------------------
graphics for web and multimedia

contact - may s. young
vox -  845 365 1903
email - may@...
URL - http://www.hiregun.com







FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 21:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:29:19 -0400
>From: Duane Douglas <ddouglas@...>
>>
>>So you're proposing that we keep them that way?
>
>no.  but you suggest that restricting runway use is tantamount to closing 
>the airports.  i'm don't know if this is true.  

That's true; you're not.

>                                                i believe that some runway 
>use should be restricted from commercial air traffic (with exceptions for 
>extraordinary circumstances).  i don't know enough about the 3 major area 
>airports to propose a plan as to how this should be done.

Again, that's true; you don't.

However, I believe that even you've likely read somewhere
about the shortage of runway space in the major metro areas, 
and how this is the single largest cause of aircraft delays.
You've likely heard of this because it's been news for quite
a while, with numerous hearings both here and in DC on the
issue.

That should suggest that the idea of air travel is considered
important to our economy.  After all, nobody's taking serious
the "obvious" solution (fly fewer planes).

So even if without any real understanding of the topic on 
which you're expounding, you should recognize a fundamental
flaw with your proposal.

	- Andrew








FROM: ujin_c
DATE: Wed 18:48
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?




http://www.darkangeltheseries.com/theseries/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "metrocake" <metrocake@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?


>
> --- grimmwerks@... wrote:
> > A good friend of mine is looking for his
> > brother-in-law who was on the 110
> > floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know
> > what this means, but
> > since there's a family looking for him, can someone
> > give me #s of
> > hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other
> > emergency numbers?
> > Please.
>
>
> =====
> * m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
> http://www.metrocake.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: ujin_c
DATE: Wed 18:51
SUBJ: [wwwac] font name

does any know the name of this font (dark angel - the series)?

http://www.darkangeltheseries.com/theseries/index.htm

thanks in advance.
- uc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "metrocake" <metrocake@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?


>
> --- grimmwerks@... wrote:
> > A good friend of mine is looking for his
> > brother-in-law who was on the 110
> > floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know
> > what this means, but
> > since there's a family looking for him, can someone
> > give me #s of
> > hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other
> > emergency numbers?
> > Please.
>
>
> =====
> * m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
> http://www.metrocake.com
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: daniel vena
DATE: Wed 21:34
SUBJ: [wwwac] now, i'm laughing.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/xnyap/20010912/lo/attacks_smoke_photo_1.html

http://httpd.chello.nl/~m.vandeven11/face2.jpg

-- 
_d.vena \\ www.vena.net









FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 21:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] Any announcement about air quality warning

On 9/12/01 at 4:34 PM -0700, Scott Wickham wrote:

> Here on the upper west side I can now smell the
> buring.  Was wondering if any recommendations about
> it.

Don't breathe.

Yes, the stench has been all over the city now that the winds have turned.

Whatever you do, don't make a fool of yourself by wearing those silly white
dust masks. They will filter out particles, but will not protect you from
the fumes.

I'm afraid that the only alternative is wearing a full blown gas mask... Or
wait for it to blow over.


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: May S. Young
DATE: Wed 21:41
SUBJ: [wwwac] Coming to NYC - A Personal Story

Folks,

I came to New York from Hong Kong when I was eight years old.  Being a new
immigrant was overwhelming as you can imagine.  I was saddened and confused
at the time, since I won't be seeing some of the people I knew in Hong Kong
ever again.

However, as soon as the plane was circling New York Harbor, I looked out at
the window.  I first two landmarks I saw were the Statue of Liberty and the
World Trade Center.  I can tell you from that moment on, any fear and
sadness I had about leaving my homeland were gone.  Lady Liberty, the most
beautiful woman in the world.  The Twin Towers, what a landmark as an
entrance to New York City from the harbor.  It was nighttime when I saw all
this.  It was so beautiful.

Now, I am stunned to see the Twin Towers destroyed within minutes.  I'm
sure you'll all agree we've lost a part of lives forever.

Pardon me if my story seemed too nostalgic, but you have to understand what
it is like for immigrants coming into NYC to begin a new life for
themselves. To see the Twin Towers and Lady Liberty greeting welcoming them
is beyond words.

If there's anything we can learn from yesterday's tragedy, please don't
take anything for granted.
What's here today, may be gone tomorrow.

Thank you for time.


May S. Young


h   i   r   e   g   u   n   .   c   o   m
--------------------------------------------
graphics for web and multimedia

contact - may s. young
vox -  845 365 1903
email - may@...
URL - http://www.hiregun.com







FROM: Stephen Gilliard
DATE: Wed 18:46
SUBJ: [wwwac] Housing for Emergency workers needed!!!!

NYS Association for Affordable Housing
[NYSAFAH] has been asked by NYC DCR to find temporary
apartments over the next few days for emergency
workers in New York City. If you have any vacant
apartments, especially blocks of apartments, please
contact Bernie Carr immediately by calling
718-432-2100

Bernie Carr, Executive Director
NYS Association for Affordable Housing
5925 Broadway
Bronx NY 10463
718-432-2100, fax 718-432-2400

PLEASE FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO ANYONE WHO MAY BE OF
ASSISTANCE 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 21:47
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:54:36 -0700
Bill Volk <bvolk@...> wrote:
>
> Saw this...
> "Personally, I'd like to see three towers built in their place, with the
> middle one much taller than the other two.  That way, it would look like a
> giant middle finger, directed straight at the fuckers who did this."
> Unknown.  (about the World trade center attack)
>
You know, I've been thinking this same thought all day long. Been using
it as an excuse to make the rude gesture to my girlfriend. So far,
she's stil getting a minor kick out of it, but I'm sure it'll wear thin
real-soon-now (she's on the list).

And I've been conceptualizing how to capture the essence of the gesture,
including a boxy base for the hand, and an off-center entrance arch
suggestive of the crossed-over thumb.

But then, maybe we should just build another set of twin towers even
higher. The pair in Malaysia were 100 feet higher, so that gives us a
mark to shoot for.

Scott







FROM: 
DATE: Wed 21:49
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?

--part1_16d.bcaf58.28d16ac5_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 9/12/2001 1:02:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
raphis@... writes:



> Jim, Jim, Jim,
> All American not-biased not racist Jim.
> 

I said nothing bigoted. What did I say that was disgusting?
And I have seen no denial of my basic point: Israeli activists commited 
terrorist crimes against many innocent British citizens. No denial that those 
terrorists took top posts in the new Israeli government. No denial, because 
it is true.

as Jim writes:


> "As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes,
> starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.)
> do we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone
> to?"
> Yes we have to wonder what lengths. Are you suggesting that you support
> these horrible acts TODAY? I should hope not.
> 

I don't support terrorism. One poster had called terrorism the last resort of 
a desperate people. The second poster cursed out the first poster. I was 
posting in support of the first poster. 

And by the way, if bulldozing entire towns in vengence for a single bomb, or 
for a single death of an Israeli soldier, is not terrorism, what is?

I notice that you don't deny that Israeli soldiers, in Palestine, shoot 
rock-throwing children to death. You can't deny it: these events are 
chronicled in all three NY newspapers through the years.

> Jim also writes
> "people in another country are distressed to the point of madness at not
> being able to have something as simple as shelter."
> 
> FYI - PLENTY of Palestinians live very well in Israel, Gaza and the West
> Bank. They make real money, spend it and enjoy a pretty normal life. They
> vote as Israeli citizens and have pretty good jobs. How do I know? I have
> lived in Israel, interacted with them and enjoyed their company. In
> addition, I have also visited other various Middle Eastern countries and can
> say that the people enjoy an equal if not a more free and democratic life.
> When are you going to understand that Israel is the only democracy in the
> Middle East and only true ally of the United States and the free world?
> 

Plenty of Palestinians lead "pretty normal lives"? What's a ''pretty normal" 
life?
Anyone but anyone following the news knows perfectly well that the 
Palestinians are second class citizens and take the lowest jobs, etc.

When I hear you I remember a Northern Irish businessman I met in a pub in 
Cork ten years ago telling me that Catholics led "pretty decent" lives in N. 
Ireland, and "didn't suffer any predjudice." He had a vested interest. And 
you evidently do as well.

And no government or democracy, no matter how isolated it is, should be able 
to commit the attrocities that Israel has committed, and continues to commit, 
against the Palestinians.


> When security doesn't work, lessons do. When someone blows themselves up in
> a public restaurant, you have to punish someone. When someone slams a plane
> into an American national landmark, you go after the terrorists, their
> supporters and the people who are hiding them. That's what our US government
> 


This is the saddest part of your email. 
You say "when security doesn't work, lessons do"..."You have to punish 
someone" Even if you don't know who commited the crime? For all the paliative 
words in your email, you do embody the old biblical "eye for an eye, tooth 
for a tooth" ethic that has maintained this ethic war for thousands of years.

The US will at least find out which individuals performed this terrorist act 
and bring them to justice. But when Israel suffers a death or an explosion, 
they retaliate with a nearly random bulldozing of another town. No focus on 
real justice. Just good old biblical revenge in the massive destruction of 
the whole village's men, women's and children's lives. That's not terrorism? 
That's your idea of justice? That's your idea of a lesson?

You say "when security doesn't work, lessons do." What do they do? Maintain 
ethnic hatreds that are thousands of years old. Eldridge Cleaver said, "If 
you're not the solution, you're part of the problem." What are you?

-"Jim, Jim, Jim"

--part1_16d.bcaf58.28d16ac5_boundary--





FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 20:50
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

> the only thing unamerican i'm seeing here is someone playing 
> holier than
> thou.

Oh, come on.  That's like apple pie and baseball.





FROM: metrocake
DATE: Wed 18:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] Confusing message/Re: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?

Um.

What does this have to do with *anything?!*

-- roe


--- ujin_c <ujin_c@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>
http://www.darkangeltheseries.com/theseries/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "metrocake" <metrocake@...>
> To: <wwwac@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?
> 
> 


=====
* m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
http://www.metrocake.com

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/





FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 21:54
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

On 9/12/01 at 8:35 PM -0400, Pame McMahon wrote:

[...]

> I've sat here all day and read post after post full of some of the most
> ridiculos rhetoric. And I've been quiet. And every post I've read has made
> me more and more sick to my stomach. But between you and the git who's
> worried about parking I've had enough.

Oh, wait. And what exactly was it that YOU did? Read post after post? I'm
sure THAT was very helpful indeed. Hey, I'm not blaming you -- I would have
donated my socks if I had any clean ones.

> I'm unsubscribing from this list

You're over-reacting. Sure, there's been rhetoric here over the past 48
hours, but what did you expect? I'd love to go back and talk Web design and
server technologies, but you know what? I've not written a single line of
script the last two days.

Like many others, I wish this was all a bad dream. But it isn't. And until
the dust settles there's just no way we're all done with this topic.


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: ray anzaldua
DATE: Wed 18:55
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

What McMahon is saying is that some people are being
petty.  Let it go.  We have bigger problems right now.

ra

--- David Glober <glober-assoc@...> wrote:
> the point about the bible quotes is well made. one
> side quotes the 
> koran and says lets be the good guys and fight those
> evil americans. 
> we quote the bible and says lets be the good guys
> and fight those 
> evil arabs. the person complaining about pointing
> this out seems to 
> want to be caught up in this posturing.
> 
> i'm in favor of protecting and defending, as well as
> carefully reflecting.
> 
> dg
> 
> 
> 
> "daniel vena" <daniel@...>
> 
> >it is entirely american to question both the state
> and the media.  if we
> >deny eachother and ourselves this right, then we
> destroy the very foundation
> >this country was built on.
> >
> >the only thing unamerican i'm seeing here is
> someone playing holier than thou.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Pame McMahon" <pame.mcmahon@...>
> >To: "Tim"
> <wwwac@...>; "Josh &
> Valerie
> >McCormack" <traveler@...>
> >Cc: <wwwac@...>
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:35 PM
> >Subject: RE: [wwwac] Nostradamus
> >
> >  > you've got to be kidding me! Let me get this
> straight now. The world trade
> >>  center is GONE. Thousands of people are dead. US
> commecial flights with
> >>  PEOPLE on them were basically used as bombs. The
> pentagon was bombed and
> >>  almost a thousand people are thought dead there.
> We need to support our
> >>  government and our President so that they can
> seek out and destroy the
> >>  bastards responsible for this. AND YOU'RE
> COMPLAINING ABOUT A BIBLE QUOTE?
> >>  You must be joking! Get some perspective will
> you!
> >>
> >>  Like it or not the majority of people in this
> country believe in the bible
> >>  (I personally do not - I think ALL religion is
> total BS) and if the
> >  > President wants to quote the bible to make
> people feel even slightly better
> >>  for a few seconds, so be it. let him. its not
> hurting you. he's not saying
> >  > if you don't believe it you can't live here.
> he's not forcing you 
> >to believe
> >  > it, or read it or anything else. SO SHUT UP
> ALREADY. and everyone who
> >>  believes in any religion believes in some sort
> of "god" whether they call
> >>  him/her that or not.
> >>
> >>  I've sat here all day and read post after post
> full of some of the most
> >>  ridiculos rhetoric. And I've been quiet. And
> every post I've read has made
> >>  me more and more sick to my stomach. But between
> you and the git who's
> >>  worried about parking I've had enough.
> >>
> >  > I'm unsubscribing from this list of unamerican
> complainer's who's only good
> >  > ideas in the last two days were to donate blood
> and offer one another
> >>  shelter. If we were to go to war I doubt any of
> you would volunteer for
> >  > military service. I suspect very few of you
> have ever served the 
> >military or
> >  > your country in any way. And obviously you
> don't give a damn about this
> >>  country - you'd rather sit at your computer
> terminals and spout off
> >  > nonsense.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com





FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 21:59
SUBJ: [wwwac] iVillage and other resources

iVillage posted this on their boards:

iVillagers are joined together in stunned disbelief at
yesterday's horrifying tragedy. We are trying to overcome
our shock and understand the dimensions of this tragedy.
Some of us were directly affected by this disaster and
have lost friends and family. Many of us are parents who
must try to help our children deal with their fears and
sorrow. And all of us want to be able to do something to
help. Here's a list of resources:

** FOR SUPPORT AND A PLACE TO TALK WITH OTHERS

In the News http://boards2.parentsplace.com/cgi-bin/boards/inthenews

American Tragedy http://boards.ivillagehealth.com/cgi-bin/boards/bhtragedy

Talking to Kids about September 11, 2001
http://boards.parentsoup.com/cgi-bin/boards/pstalkingtokids

Attack on America: For the Victims
http://boards2.parentsplace.com/cgi-bin/boards/lovedones

iVillage Chat http://www.ivillage.com/chat/

** ARTICLES FOR PARENTS

Helping Your Kids Feel Safe
http://www.parentsplace.com/family/famdynamics/qa/0,3105,12427,00.html

Attack on America:
http://www.parentsplace.com/toddlers/social/gen/0,8728,274624,00.html

** HOW TO HELP

You can make donations to the following agencies:

1) Red Cross http://www.redcross.org/

To make a donation, call 1-800 HELP NOW or visit the
 http://www.redcross.org/donate/donate.html online
donation system. If you are experiencing problems while
donating online, it is due to extremely heavy volume on
their Web site. Please try again later in the week or call
the 800 number.

2) United Way's September 11 Fund: https://www.uwnyc.com/epledge/sept11.cfm

3) The Salvation Army will accept financial contributions through (800) SAL
ARMY.

Our prayers and hearts go out to those who have lost loved ones.

The iVillage Staff







FROM: Tristan Louis
DATE: Wed 22:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] Just adding to the testimonials...

Here's mine:

http://www.tnl.net/newsletter/2001/wtcbombing.asp

and there are more at http://www.stinky.com/wtc/

I'm going to try to get some sleep now... Good luck to all of you and if 
anyone needs a space, drop me a note. I have an apt. on 28th and lex with 
DSL so if you want to use it for temporary office space or need a place to 
sleep, feel free to contact me.

TNL



| Tristan Louis    | tristan@...     | 140 e. 28th st.          |
|                       | http://www.tnl.net | Suite 8C                   |
|     Boot up, Log In,Geek out          | New York, NY 10016 |

To subscribe to the TNL.net newsletter, just send email to
TNLnet-subscribe@...







FROM: 
DATE: Wed 21:03
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?


Is this a joke? Is this funny?

Someone with 2 children who's missing, and you send this?


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, ujin_c wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> http://www.darkangeltheseries.com/theseries/index.htm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "metrocake" <metrocake@...>
> To: <wwwac@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?
> 
> 
> >
> > --- grimmwerks@... wrote:
> > > A good friend of mine is looking for his
> > > brother-in-law who was on the 110
> > > floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to know
> > > what this means, but
> > > since there's a family looking for him, can someone
> > > give me #s of
> > > hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or other
> > > emergency numbers?
> > > Please.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > * m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
> > http://www.metrocake.com
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
> Messenger
> > http://im.yahoo.com






FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 22:06
SUBJ: [wwwac] Any announcement about air quality warning

> Yes, the stench has been all over the city now that the winds have turned.

I have a view of the winds blowing the smoke uptown. Here is a picture
taken around sunset:

http://www.dirtybackroad.com/photos/skyline912.html






FROM: Scott Bowling
DATE: Wed 22:06
SUBJ: [wwwac] ALT parking?

On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:59:47 -0400
"mike dizon" <mdizon_2000@...> wrote:
>
> From: Kathy Forer <kef@...>
> 
> > Has anyone listening to radio or NY1 heard anything about alternate
> > side of the street parking suspension? 1010wins.com still has no
>
> i cant believe this.....you're worried about alternate side parking?
> 
Well, besides the $55 ticket you get, dontcha think it's a good thing to
get yer car out of the way so the street cleaners can do their jobs?

The usual time to check is after 6am any day, so the radio stations and
cable channels might not know anything until then. You can check the
official web site:

   http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/html/travroad/scrintro.html

Which pretty much says you should call the following number for current
status:

   212 or 718 CALLDOT (225-5368)

HTH,

Scott






FROM: Frank D. Greco
DATE: Wed 22:07
SUBJ: [wwwac] Any announcement about air quality warning

 >> Here on the upper west side I can now smell the
 >> buring.  Was wondering if any recommendations about
 >> it.
 >
 >Don't breathe.

	When I arrived home in NJ via ferry, they hosed everyone
	upon arrival.  I'm sure they are concerned about asbestos
	dust, since the towers were built a while back.

	Frank G.






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 22:10
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

On 9/12/01 at 9:21 PM -0400, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:

> At a Height.
>
>
> BTW - The route to Laugaurdia is around Manhattan over the Triboro Brigde
> into
> LI Sound to Lagardia...
>
> It is not - cross Midtwon Manhattan at low height.

I'm not an aviation expert, but I live and work in Midtown Manhattan, and
I've seen literally hundreds of commercial jets fly overhead over the past
years (and I mean right overhead, between 5th and 6th Avenue). Most of the
time relatively high, but in bad weather, low enough that you could
actually hear them.

And many times I've wondered about that... I remember when I was living and
working in Amsterdam, there was a huge outrage among the population when
Schiphol Airport, for construction reasons I believe, had planes descend
and take off on a route SMACK over the middle of the old town... I was
working in a building on the Museumplein (where all the major museums and
art treasures are, as well as the US consulate by the way) and I remember
being on the roof of my building watching planes go over so low I felt I
could almost touch them...

Of course, the financial interests of the airport outweighed the legitimate
fears of the population... And this was AFTER an Israeli cargo jet crashed
into a residential high rise in the south east of town, in the early
nineties, killing hundreds.

Flying over densely populated areas is inherently risky. That's without
taking suicidal terrorists into account...


-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 22:12
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:28:57 -0400
>From: Brooklyn Linux Solutions <ruben@...>
>
>There is still permitted Choppers over the perphery.  no planes.
>Certainly no Commercial Jet Liners below a resonable hieght.
>
>I've never seens a plane fly over head in Manhattan

You've not paid attention.  To you, airplanes are background.
That's reasonable; it's not a major interest.

However, aircraft have *always* pulled my attention (which
is why so many people in my family were unsurprised when
I became a pilot).  I see plenty of airplanes flying over
the city.

But this isn't of real import.  Even if we do prevent aircraft
from overflying NYC, it would accomplish nothing unless you 
also shut down EWR, JFK, and LGA.

Now that I'm home, I've more material with which to work.
LGA is under 10 nautical miles from midtown.  That's about
140 seconds.  That's more than from EWR to downtown, but
less than JFK to downtown.

Also, a quick check shows a few approaches/departures
which pass over Manhatten.  One is a departure from EWR's
11.  The missed approach courses for EWR's 4L and 4R ILS
approaches passed over midtown.  The missed approach
for the 11 ILS passes over downtown.

Turning attention to JFK, it looks like at least a 
few arrivals pass over NYC (IGN.IGN6 and LVZ.LENDY4).
But these include RADAR vectors at the end, so it
would vary.

It looks like the vectors to the 13L ILS would pass
right near, if not over, downtown.

A number of LGA's arrivals (ie. MIP.MIP3 and
DQo.MINKS2) pass just about over (and parallel
to) the East River.  The ILS to 13 passes right
over the northern part of Central Park.  There's
also a VOR-DME approach that passes over the same
path, but I doubt that it's used much.  The
same is true for the "River Visual" to 13.

And, of course this doesn't count traffic that's
vectored over Manhatten by TRACON or New York
Center.

But you've never seen a plane fly overhead in 
Manhatten.

>It's just a matter of keeping planes on the correct routes, or shoot them
>down.

You'd shoot down an aircraft for a slight deviation with only
a few tens of seconds of notice, and with no warning given to
the aircraft?  Even if the pilot is complaining about a control
problem?  Somehow, I'm having an increasingly difficult 
time taking you seriously.  I picture you and Wiley Coyote
getting your ideas and equipment from the same place.

>Air Space above NYC and Mnahattan is controlled.  Now it need to be
>controlled by force.

You don't even know the meaning of the word "controlled"
in this context, do you?  

I'll ask again: is this the level of accuracy, professionalism, 
and research you put into your computer-related tasks?

	- Andrew







FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Wed 22:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Another major telecom facility endangered

I started receiving reports at about 21:15 that 60 Hudson
is in danger of collapse.  The building has already been
evacuated.

	- Andrew







FROM: Shirley, Scott
DATE: Wed 21:21
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

This is what happens when you make your spiritual life into a thing,
analyzed and codified, instead of an encounter with God.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: grimmwerks@... <mailto:grimmwerks@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:11 PM
> To: Robert Gruber
> Cc: wwwac@...
> Subject: RE: [wwwac] Nostradamus
> 
> 
> >>I'm sorry if this is crass and offensive to religious people but it
> is precisely this us and them mentality, this good and evil crap that
> is exploited by power hungry, hate mongering terrorists and world
> leaders alike.<<
> 
> I agree with you Rob; with a Lutheran minister father, a Christian
> Reformed minister uncle, and a 12 year history of private Christian
> schooling, the one thing that has always kept me from joining 'the
> corporation' is the idea that every person who has some 
> differing faith
> seems to think that they're way is the only true way (even 
> splitting the
> Christian religion into catholic and protestant, and denominations of
> same) - it doesn't bring man together, it seems, but makes 
> the division
> more clear. 
> 
> From a Christian perspective, with the years of 'saving' 
> others, the Holy
> Wars, the Crusades...if there was a Christ, I swear he'd be 
> shaking his
> head saying "you dudes just didn't get it".





FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 22:22
SUBJ: [wwwac] Any announcement about air quality warning

I know this was not sent to the list (by accident?) but I'm sure some
people will find this helpful information:


On 9/12/01 at 10:13 PM -0400, Wendy Siegel wrote:

> If you go to any Home Depot they have about three different levels of mask
> protection.  The ones the newsmen were wearing on t.v. looked like dust
> masks and wouldn't protect against much.  Home Depot does sell masks that
> protect you against harsher fumes for people who work around chemicals and
> might have ones for working around substances like asbestos as
> well.  Depending on how concerned you are you can also get a home air
> filter and keep your windows closed for a while.  I don't live in
> Manhattan, but I'm sensitive to chemicals.  People with respiratory
> problems or asthma might be a bit concerned if they live very close to the
> epicenter.  Wendy
>
> At 09:39 PM 9/12/01, you wrote:
>>On 9/12/01 at 4:34 PM -0700, Scott Wickham wrote:
>>
>> > Here on the upper west side I can now smell the
>> > buring.  Was wondering if any recommendations about
>> > it.
>>
>>Don't breathe.
>>
>>Yes, the stench has been all over the city now that the winds have turned.
>>
>>Whatever you do, don't make a fool of yourself by wearing those silly white
>>dust masks. They will filter out particles, but will not protect you from
>>the fumes.
>>
>>I'm afraid that the only alternative is wearing a full blown gas mask... Or
>>wait for it to blow over.
>>

-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Larry Aronson
DATE: Wed 22:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] ADMIN: Guidelines for Acceptable posts

Hi.

As is obvious, the rule requiring posts to this list to be on-topic has
been suspended. However, that does not mean that other rules have been
suspended -- most importantly those requiring courtesy towards other
subscribers and respect for their opinions.

Please think thrice before posting. Does your post advance a
discussion or introduce new information that might be useful to other
subscribers -- Good!

If someone's post offends you, please express your moral outrage to that
person privately. Under no circumstances will the list team allow this
medium to descend to name calling.

TIA for your understanding and cooperation. Please reply privately to
<listhelp@...> if you have any comments regarding this post.

l.

Larry Aronson
WWWAC SysAdmin
http://wwwac.org/






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 22:25
SUBJ: [wwwac] Any announcement about air quality warning

On 9/12/01 at 10:06 PM -0400, Amita Guha wrote:

>> Yes, the stench has been all over the city now that the winds have turned.
>
> I have a view of the winds blowing the smoke uptown. Here is a picture
> taken around sunset:
>
> http://www.dirtybackroad.com/photos/skyline912.html


Eew!



-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Ian Magnani
DATE: Wed 22:28
SUBJ: [wwwac] new threat

fox news just reported that they are evacuating the empire state building
and penn station was just evacuated.






FROM: Peter Shankman
DATE: Wed 22:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] Penn Station and Empire State Building EVAC

CNN is reporting Penn Station and Empire State Building EVAC ordered.

Anyone know anything else?

-Peter


Peter Shankman
peter@...
www.shankman.com

"While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."





FROM: Amita Guha
DATE: Wed 22:29
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

> And I've been conceptualizing how to capture the essence of the gesture,
> including a boxy base for the hand, and an off-center entrance arch
> suggestive of the crossed-over thumb.

There is a church on Emory University campus that looks like a hand
giving the finger. I'm not kidding. I saw it when I went there for my
cousin's graduation. She said the rumor was that the university had
had some sort of dispute with the architect at some point, so he built
it like that. It will take me some time to find it but I'll scan the
pic when I do.






FROM: mrs.j.hart
DATE: Wed 22:38
SUBJ: [wwwac] Can We Invent/Apply New Tech Measures?

------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C13BDB.A89CA7C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

our concerns for privacy and convenience override other concerns until =
it becomes apparent that benefits outweigh risk. i.e., as an air =
traveler (and frequent visitor to WTC) i've readily accepted (though =
i've wondered about the effectiveness of) security measures though metal =
detection and proof of documentation processes.=20

i know we've got a list of practical recommendations (sky marshals state =
troupers for screening passengers). instead of concentrating on making =
the familiar conditions tougher, we've got to get outside the box on =
security. i'm not someone who'd think i could have answers, but it seems =
we should utilize all of our intellectual resources to help the powers =
that be protect us. and we should spend time talking about it (like =
we're doing now) because tenacity can be a great weapon - if the same =
sort of zeal could've been applied to counter intelligence efforts as =
zeal that fights gay marriages or anti abortion polices...
=20
who knows...=20
=20
what can we do with newer technology? i.e., global positioning, digital =
biometrics, etc..
=20
what should we be looking into to find the security holes that could =
cause others to hurt us?
=20
what financial ties do our advisories have to what technologies?=20

it's amazing how different things are since smoking was banned on =
international flights. that wasn't too long ago; we can implement =
ambitious changes quickly.

i don't know how such things are governed, and i doubt the basic idea =
can work quickly for a proposal that's this extreme, but we could think =
along these lines...

corporations could offer air flight as a company benefit. we could =
subsidize and revamp air carrier routes and equalize the number of =
places an airline flies to. airline to airport relationships would be =
consistent - from mechanics to concession stand workers - the employees =
would belong the airport/airline. we'd choose our airline the way we'd =
choose an HMO. as passengers on the carrier list, in order to board, =
we'd have date centric, flight # related scanning devices that matched =
barcodes to our seats and luggage that serve in some way as a pre take =
off check. additionally, we'd have to prove our ID by submitting to an =
in-person test - thumb prints, iris reading, etc.=20
 =20
i know this places great restrictions on our freedom and that's why it's =
so unappealing. but it's unappealing to imagine the sadistic mentality =
that perpetrates atrocities. we have to beyond the reasonable thinking =
that actually interferes our ability to protect ourselves.
=20
security measures as they show up, are physical. but we have to be more =
clever.

we don't want to chase crackpot theories but like law enforcement =
personnel that might bring in psychics, we can't get elitist either.
=20
on that note...

we usually hear about extra security measures on dates that mark =
anniversaries of attacks. we've got to consider the dates that might =
make us more vulnerable.

this may not be clever sounding... someone suggested 9/11 might've been =
deliberately chosen by those who planned yesterday's strikes on WTC =
because 911 represents an emergency situation. it crossed my mind too.

but i preferred not to think that something so trivial could've been =
applied because it emphasized the absolute cruelty of the terrorist =
mindset.
=20
it's a day later and i realize we've got to analyze every aspect of this =
tragedy from every perspective by applying frames of reference that are =
farfetched and/or are unnatural to ours.=20

i wondered if symbolism related to the # 9 held some clues. i don't have =
strong beliefs in numerology so i thought less about mystical symbolism =
when i wondered if it could mean 9 targets had been selected. being =
visual, i realized the numbers 1 and 1 could've symbolized the twin =
towers. interestingly, when i did a search for numerology links, these =
came up:   =20

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/upclose/elhage.htm=
l

http://www.spd.dcu.ie/moreilly/mathematics_&_culture.htm=20

http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic/gopher/conspiracy/environ/strong



who am i? who is mr.j?

------=_NextPart_000_0124_01C13BDB.A89CA7C0--






FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 22:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] can anyone confirm an announcement on Z100?

------=_NextPart_000_018D_01C13BDA.B8E8D320
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A friend of mine informed me that Z100 announced that there is a need =
for volunteers to relieve the current workers. The meeting location is =
to be at 70 Hudson @ Jersey City.=20

CAN ANYONE CONFIRM THIS????


Mike

------=_NextPart_000_018D_01C13BDA.B8E8D320--





FROM: 
DATE: Wed 22:33
SUBJ: [wwwac] Update: the Iraq connection.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:13:32PM -0400, daniel vena wrote:
> http://www.worldtribune.com/wta/Archive-2001/me_israel_09_12.html
> 
> Well, a lot of people have been waiting to hear this one.  Israeli
> intelligence finds that Iraq recruited and financed Osama Bin Laden for
> yesterday's attack.

I flipped through this one.  The first line/paragraph does state this.
However, the rest of the article (and all quotes) say that Iraq is
"the most likely" candidate.  It was a little more solid on Bin Laden
saying "All the steps lead to him."

-- 
Wes Hertlein
wes@...

linux uptime: 4 days | 23 hours | 44 minutes
time checked: Wed Sep 12 22:31:14 2001 EDT





FROM: metrocake
DATE: Wed 19:36
SUBJ: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?

Hold on, wait a sec, it looks like he/she posted under
the wrong subject header, posted *again* under the
correct header, but never bothered to say they goofed.

Insensitive, to be sure, but clearly an error.

So, whoever you are, please mind your posting
etiquette, 'specially at a time like this.  

-- roe


Reply-to: "ujin_c" <ujin_c@...> 
From: "ujin_c" <ujin_c@...> | Block Address |
Add to Address Book 
To: "wwwac" <wwwac@...> 
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 18:51:15 -0700 
Subject: [wwwac] font name 
         
does any know the name of this font (dark angel - the
series)?

http://www.darkangeltheseries.com/theseries/index.htm

thanks in advance.
- uc.





--- grimmwerks@... wrote:
> 
> Is this a joke? Is this funny?
> 
> Someone with 2 children who's missing, and you send
> this?
> 
> 
> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, ujin_c wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
http://www.darkangeltheseries.com/theseries/index.htm
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "metrocake" <metrocake@...>
> > To: <wwwac@...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: [wwwac] HELP: hospitals?
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > > --- grimmwerks@... wrote:
> > > > A good friend of mine is looking for his
> > > > brother-in-law who was on the 110
> > > > floor of the first building hit. I'm afraid to
> know
> > > > what this means, but
> > > > since there's a family looking for him, can
> someone
> > > > give me #s of
> > > > hospitals where the wounded might be taken? Or
> other
> > > > emergency numbers?
> > > > Please.
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > * m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in
> "dysfunctional"
> > > http://www.metrocake.com
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant
> messaging with Yahoo!
> > Messenger
> > > http://im.yahoo.com



=====
* m e t r o c a k e * -- we put the "fun" in "dysfunctional"
http://www.metrocake.com

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/





FROM: eric
DATE: Wed 21:51
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild, rebuild!!

>Let them rebuild.  Let the new center be a beacon of information and
>communication.....
>
>The ONE silver lining of all of this horror, if there can be one:  One
>complaint that is heard again and again is that in older US cities, there is
>no room for new infrastructure.
>
>Now there is....as well as pre-existing redundant backup systems already in
>place in Brooklyn.
>
>Let the new towers be at the vanguard of technology....global cellphones for
>NYC and all the businesses who come here, as they will continue to.....and let
>it also serve as a new and better HQ for national security...if nothing else
>this is a wake-up call......
>
>What's that line from "The Watchmen...."  "...it will be a new world, a better
>world to die in........"
>
>I still can't believe that the Towers are gone......but the new ones will
>rise, and serve the city and the world even more....let those who died not
>have done so in vain.....
>
>Now I'm gonna go re-call the local blood ctr to see if they'll take more folks
>yet...
>
>---Jen
>
>
>

What would it cost to use structual titanium?







FROM: Eileen 'Turtle' Parzek
DATE: Wed 22:34
SUBJ: [wwwac] out of my stupor for a moment...

Hi,

I am sorry I haven't thought of this earlier, in the midst of my own 
stunned reactions to what happened down there... it just now occurred to me 
that there must be a lot of people who live and work downtown who can't go 
home or to work for a while... and I know this might seem like a silly 
offer, but if anyone wants (or can) hop a train or a bus upstate, I have 
sleeping space for two people here in Albany, NY.   The air is clean, and 
the weather gorgeous, there is an awesome annual street festival on 
Saturday and I'm between projects right now so I could actually amuse 
guests for the next week if need be.   Email me or call the cell # below if 
I can help someone in this way.
~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~
Eileen "Turtle" Parzek ~  phone~ 518-505-6617
http://www.turtlesweb.com  mailto:turtle@...
digital artist ~ information architect ~ project mgr ~ consultant








FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Thu 02:40
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

In article <20010912212136.A17545@...>,
	ruben@... (Brooklyn Linux Solutions) writes:
> At a Height.

Well, I suppose anything not at sea level is at a height, 
so you've finally said something on this topic that's not
obviously false.

> 
> BTW - The route to Laugaurdia is around Manhattan over the Triboro Brigde
> into 
> LI Sound to Lagardia...

And you're looking at the approach plate for LGA's ILS 13
when you say this, right?  That's the plate where the flight
path passes right over Manhatten at about the northern edge
of Central Park?

BTW, the altitude for this is between 1819' AGL (when
leaving the NJ side of the Hudson) to down to 787' AGL (when
on the far side of the next river).  While, as I agreed
above, this is "a height", it's not a significant one if the
pilot really wants to die.

Unless you've already aimed your missile (and are pretty
close to your target - those things are quick but not
instantaneous), you'd never have a chance.

BTW, where's the Triboro Bridge?  For all my aviation maps,
I don't have a map that shows this.  I'm guessing from the
name (and the local geography) that it's at a point also
about where the northern Central Park border is (but over to
the east, of course).

If that's right, then the ILS 13 approach does pass close
to over that bridge.  But airplanes would fly that path
down to the runway.  They'd not go near the Sound (unless
they've missed the runway for some reason).

Note that this is just one approach.  But I'm sure you've
checked it before making another one of your assertions
about aviation, right?

	- Andrew





FROM: mike dizon
DATE: Wed 22:39
SUBJ: [wwwac] new threat

z100 just said dogs found 'something positive'


----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Magnani <ian@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:28 PM
Subject: [wwwac] new threat


> fox news just reported that they are evacuating the empire state building
> and penn station was just evacuated.





FROM: Joanna Wissinger
DATE: Wed 21:06
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

At 4:14 PM -0400 9/12/01, cb wrote:
>I did not have a problem getting to the site. Yes, the weight limit is 110
>lbs. I can't seem to find anything that states that if you have tattoos you
>can't give blood. Did you read this somewhere or was told this information?
>I would like to know if having them is a factor. Does anyone know?

a recent study of 626 individuals showed that those with tattoos are 
6 times more likely to be infected with hepatitis C. The news items 
said that doctors urged those with tattoos to get a blood test, as 
hepatitis C is potentially fatal but usually, treatable if caught 
early. (it's symptomless in the early stages). plus, it can be 
sexually transmitted. so I guess partners should get blood tests too.
-- 




Joanna Wissinger
c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq





FROM: Joanna Wissinger
DATE: Wed 21:00
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 2:56 PM -0400 9/12/01, Kevin Lee wrote:
>I can't see doing an exact replica of the WTC, but perhaps the city 
>will propose a structure that is even more spectacular.

well let's face it, the WTC was not the finest moment in 
architecture. But I am sad now that it's gone.
-- 




Joanna Wissinger
c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq





FROM: Venessa Perez
DATE: Wed 22:44
SUBJ: [wwwac] Penn Station and Empire State Building EVAC

False Alarm.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Shankman" <peter@...>
To: <wwwac@...>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:31 PM
Subject: [wwwac] Penn Station and Empire State Building EVAC


> CNN is reporting Penn Station and Empire State Building EVAC ordered.
>
> Anyone know anything else?
>
> -Peter
>
>
> Peter Shankman
> peter@...
> www.shankman.com
>
> "While the storm clouds gather far across the sea,
> Let us swear allegiance to a land that's free,
> Let us all be grateful for a land so fair,
> As we raise our voices in a solemn prayer."






FROM: Donna Jones
DATE: Wed 22:47
SUBJ: [wwwac] donate blood!

> If you don't see the outrage, consider that a heterosexual female who
> engages in unsafe sex with HIV+ men would not be rejected, whereas a
> gay man, regardless of sexual practices or HIV status, will be
> rejected *not because of dangerous sex practices* but on the basis of
> his being gay. It's a double standard: gay men are rejected just
> because they are gay, while heterosexuals are considered on the basis
> of practices.

ah, David.  This is not correct, at least in Portland, Maine and I think the policies are
probably the same across the country.   I happened just to have given blood a couple of
weeks ago and one of the questions was essentially have "you had sex with a gay man
within the past x years" - they worded it better but that was the essence of it.  They
also ask about travel (mad cow, I suppose) and other things.  ....I'm talking about the
American Red Cross, I guess there are other places and there polities may vary.

best regards
Donna



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Jones
Home Site:  http://www.westendwebs.com
Have you been to the hunger site ( http://thehungersite.com/ ) today?







FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Thu 02:53
SUBJ: [wwwac] Nostradamus

In article <20010913015523.40326.qmail@...>,
	ray_anz@... (ray anzaldua) writes:
> What McMahon is saying is that some people are being
> petty.  Let it go.  We have bigger problems right now.

I'm afraid that I don't agree that the original post
was petty.  It's easy to be who we are at peace, and in
calm.

But can we remain who we are - or who we aspire to be - in
the face of great adversity?  Or shall we fall into one of
the many pits so ready to take our collective soul, such as
the 'mindless hatred' pit, the 'God is on my side' pit, or
the 'holier than thou' pit?

That's the true test of our ideals.

These pits should look familiar.  Not only are they on
our landscape, waiting to catch us unawares, but they're
also the pits from which these obscene acts come.  

To misquote: To be great, we must first be good.

	- Andrew





FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 23:01
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild, rebuild!!

Aside from the cost, titanium is not a good choice of building material


On 2001.09.12 21:51:15 -0400 eric wrote:
>Let them rebuild.  Let the new center be a beacon of information and
>communication.....
>
>The ONE silver lining of all of this horror, if there can be one:  One
>complaint that is heard again and again is that in older US cities, there
is
>no room for new infrastructure.
>
>Now there is....as well as pre-existing redundant backup systems already
in
>place in Brooklyn.
>
>Let the new towers be at the vanguard of technology....global cellphones
for
>NYC and all the businesses who come here, as they will continue to.....and
let
>it also serve as a new and better HQ for national security...if nothing
else
>this is a wake-up call......
>
>What's that line from "The Watchmen...."  "...it will be a new world, a
better
>world to die in........"
>
>I still can't believe that the Towers are gone......but the new ones will
>rise, and serve the city and the world even more....let those who died not
>have done so in vain.....
>
>Now I'm gonna go re-call the local blood ctr to see if they'll take more
folks
>yet...
>
>---Jen
>
>
>

What would it cost to use structual titanium?


-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Joanna Wissinger
DATE: Wed 22:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

At 8:28 PM -0400 9/12/01, Brooklyn Linux Solutions wrote:
>There is still permitted Choppers over the perphery.  no planes.
>Certainly no Commercial Jet Liners below a resonable hieght.
>
>I've never seens a plane fly over head in Manhattan

they fly over Manhattan, but they stay really high. and they 
definitely fly over brooklyn, but I guess the williamsburg savings 
bank or the chase bank tower make much less tempting targets.
-- 




Joanna Wissinger
c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq





FROM: Joanna Wissinger
DATE: Wed 22:56
SUBJ: [wwwac] Fwd: [APW] RED Cross Blood Donation Eligability

>**********************************************************************
>
>Blood Donation Eligibility Guidelines
>
>General
>To give blood, you must be healthy, at least 17 years old, and
>weigh at least 110 pounds.
>
>Specific
>
>AIDS
>Do not give blood to get an AIDS test. Please see your own
>doctor or local health department to get tested. We are required
>to report all positive HIV results to public health officials.
>
>If you have any reason to believe you have AIDS, do not donate
>blood. You risk harming a vulnerable patient who needs blood
>transfusions. With new, advanced tests, the risk of transmitting
>HIV through a blood transfusion is 1 in 1.5 million.
>
>However, before blood is drawn, we must ensure that a donor
>does not display the high risk behaviors associated with certain
>infectious diseases. Do not give blood if you are at risk for
>getting and spreading the AIDS virus. According to the Food and
>Drug Administration, you are at risk if:
>
>*	you are a male who has had sex with another male since
>1977, even once
>*	you have ever used a needle, even once, to take any illegal
>drugs or steroids
>*	you have taken clotting factor concentrates for a bleeding
>disorder such as hemophilia
>*	you have ever had a positive test for AIDS (HIV) or AIDS
>antibody or antigen
>*	you have AIDS or one of its symptoms,which include:
>*	unexplained weight loss (10 pounds or more in less than 2
>months)
>*	night sweats
>*	blue or purple spots on or under the skin
>*	long-lasting white spots or unusual sores in your mouth
>*	lumps in your neck, armpits, or groin that last more than a
>month
>*	fever higher than 99 degrees that lasts more than 10 days
>*	diarrhea lasting over a month
>*	persistent cough and shortness of breath
>*	you have had sex with any person described above in the last
>12 months
>*	you have been given money or drugs for sex since 1977
>*	you were born in or lived in (for more than one year) Cameroon,
>Central African Republic, Chad, Congo, Equatorial Guinea,
>Gabon, Niger, or Nigeria since 1977
>*	you received blood transfusions or medical treatment with a
>blood product in any of these countries since 1977
>*	you had sex with anyone who was born in or lived in any of
>these countries since 1977
>
>
>AIDS Exposure
>
>*	defer 12 months if health care worker exposed to blood of
>patients with HIV infection by a needle stick or open wound
>
>Allergy
>
>*	defer temporarily if breathing difficulty is present
>
>Asthma
>
>*	accept if controlled
>
>Blood Pressure
>
>*	accept with or without medications if blood pressure is within
>American Red Cross limits on day of donation
>
>Blood Transfusion
>
>*	defer for 12 months
>
>Cancer
>
>*	accept:
>*	if 5 years from date of diagnosis, surgery or last radiation
>treatment
>*	if no recurrence
>*	if no chemotherapy
>*	some types of skin cancer
>*	defer:
>*	leukemia or lymphoma
>*	recurrence of same cancer (except squamous or basal cell)
>
>
>Cold, Flu or Sore Throat
>
>*	defer temporarily for active cold or flu symptoms such as fever,
>sore throat, productive cough, or general fatigue on day of
>donation
>
>Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
>
>*	defer indefinitely if at increased risk, a history of, diagnosed, or
>if any relatives have been diagnosed
>*	see Travel Outside of U. S. section (bottom of page)
>
>Dental
>
>*	accept teeth cleaning, scaling, root canal, fillings and tooth
>extraction if no infection present
>*	defer 3 days for oral surgery, abscesses or infection
>
>Diabetes
>
>*	accept two weeks after initial dosage of insulin or change of
>dosage
>*	defer indefinitely if, since 1980, received an injection of bovine
>(beef) insulin made from cattle from the United Kingdom
>*	Donation Intervals (for whole blood)
>*	accept every 8 weeks (or every 56 days)
>*	accept 3 days after routine plateletpheresis
>*	accept 28 days after routine plasmapheresis
>
>Epilepsy
>
>*	accept if seizure-free for 3 months with or without medications
>
>Heart Disease/Surgery
>
>*	evaluated individually, must have no restrictions on physical
>activity, be symptom-free and on no medication for heart disease
>except for aspirin
>*	6-month wait after heart attack if above criteria met
>*	accept musculoskeletal (non-cardiac) chest pain
>*	6-month deferral for non-diagnosed heart related chest pain
>*	accept pacemaker if pulse and above criteria met
>
>Hemoglobin
>
>*	each donor's hemoglobin is tested at the blood collection site
>*	if deferred, deferral is only temporary and donor may try again
>next day
>
>Hepatitis/Unexplained Jaundice
>
>*	defer indefinitely hepatitis/yellow jaundice or liver disease of
>unknown origin on or after age 11
>*	defer indefinitely if ever used a needle, even once to take any
>illegal drugs or steroids
>*	accept jaundice or hepatitis associated with birth, medications,
>bile duct obstruction, or hepatitis before age 11
>*	defer confirmed positive HBsAg, repeat reactive anti-HCV or
>anti-HBc at any age
>
>Hepatitis Exposure
>
>*	defer 12 months for close contact with hepatitis patient (close
>contact is defined as sexual contact or sharing same
>household, kitchen, and/or toilet facilities) or as membership
>group, e. g. dormitory, in which multiple cases of hepatitis have
>occurred
>*	defer 12 months someone who is a current inmate of a
>correctional institution (including jails, prisons or detention
>centers) or someone who has been incarcerated for more than
>72 consecutive hours during previous 12 months or someone
>who has been in a chronic long-term psychiatric/mental
>institution for more than 28 days
>*	defer 12 months following blood transfusion, blood injections,
>tattoo, non-sterile needle stick/body piercing or blood contact
>with open wound, non-intact skin or mucous membrane
>*	defer 12 months following human bite that resulted in a wound
>which broke the skin
>*	accept casual contact (no contact with blood or body fluids)
>*	defer 12 months for intranasal use of cocaine or any street
>drug
>*	accept health care workers working with hepatitis/HIV positive
>patients providing:
>*	there is no contact with blood through nonsterile percutaneous
>innoculation (needle stick), an open wound, non-intact skin or
>mucous membrane
>*	accept sterile body piercing
>
>Immunization/Vaccination
>
>*	defer 4 weeks for German Measles (Rubella), MMR (Measles,
>Mumps and Rubella) and Chicken Pox vaccine (Varivax)
>*	defer 3 weeks for exposure to the following (unless immunized
>or had the disease):
>*	Red Measles
>*	German Measles
>*	Chicken Pox
>*	Mumps
>*	defer 3 weeks for exposure to meningitis
>*	defer 2 weeks for Red Measles (Rubeola), Mumps, Oral Polio,
>Small Pox and Yellow Fever vaccine
>*	defer 7 days for hepatitis B vaccine when given for protection
>and not exposure (for exposure see Hepatitis Exposure section)
>*	accept hepatitis A vaccine
>*	accept most other immunizations/ vaccinations, e.g. flu,
>tetanus, providing donor is symptom-free and fever-free
>
>Infectious Mononucleosis
>
>*	accept if recovered
>
>Malaria
>
>*	defer 3 years after last symptom
>*	see Travel Outside of U.S. section
>
>Medications
>
>*	defer indefinitely for Pituitary-Derived Human Growth Hormone
>and Tegison
>*	defer 3 years from last dose of Soriatane
>*	defer 8 weeks for injections of radioactive material
>*	defer 4 weeks for Accutane, Proscar, Propecia & Gold therapy
>*	defer 2 weeks for any change in insulin dose
>*	defer for 2 days from last dose of oral or intramuscular
>antibiotics or antifungal unless taking for chronic condition
>*	defer for 2 days from last dose of antivirals
>
>Organ/Tissue Transplants
>
>*	defer 12 months for allogeneic organ or tissue transplants,
>including dental powder
>*	defer if received dura mater transplant
>*	accept autologous transplants if only autologous received
>
>Pregnancy
>
>*	defer while pregnant
>*	defer 6 weeks after uncomplicated third trimester or term
>delivery or caesarean section
>*	defer 12 months if delivery required a blood transfusion
>*	accept nursing mothers
>
>Serious Illness
>
>*	donors will be individually evaluated
>*	defer indefinitely Kaposi's sarcoma, Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus,
>Chagas Disease, Babesiosis, Lyme Disease, and
>Leishmaniasis
>
>Sickle Cell
>
>*	defer for sickle cell disease
>*	accept for sickle cell trait
>
>Skin Disease and Rash
>
>*	donors will be individually evaluated
>*	phlebotomy site must be free of rash/skin disease
>
>Surgery
>
>*	accept history of recent surgery if:
>*	underlying illness does not disqualify donor
>*	stitches/staples dissolved or removed
>*	wound is healed
>*	donor has resumed normal activity and is feeling well
>*	accept minor cuts requiring stitches/staples after 48 hours if no
>signs of infection
>
>Syphilis/Gonorrhea
>
>*	defer if have had or have been treated for in last 12 months
>*	defer if positive test for syphilis in past 12 months
>*	documentation of treatment may be required
>
>Travel Outside of U.S.
>
>*	defer 12 months for travel into areas with a risk of malaria
>*	defer 3 years after having lived for 1 year or more in a malarial-
>risk area
>*	defer indefinitely if during 1980 - 1996 spent a total time that
>adds up to 6 months or more in the United Kingdom (England,
>Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Isle of Man, Channel Islands)
>*	see AIDS section
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 




Joanna Wissinger
c 917 407 6825 im joannawnyc web http://joannaw.com
content strategy/information architecture/competitive intelligence
what is "ubiquitous platforms"? find out at http://www.joannaw.com/ubiq





FROM: Andrew Gideon
DATE: Thu 03:08
SUBJ: [wwwac] Another major telecom facility endangered

In article <200109130215.f8D2FKj00867@...>,
	ag797@... (Andrew Gideon) writes:
> I started receiving reports at about 21:15 that 60 Hudson
> is in danger of collapse.  The building has already been
> evacuated.
> 

I've now been told that the building is structurally
sound, despite the evacuation.  However (and this part
was a little unclear in the notice) it (and other?) telecom
facilities are at risk of losing power.

People are still prohibited entry to 60 Hudson.

The wording of the message also implied that there are other
facilities at risk of collapse.  But this may simply be
the result of a harried hurried operations staffer.

	- Andrew





FROM: Brooklyn Linux Solutions
DATE: Wed 23:09
SUBJ: [wwwac] Rebuild then now

That doesn't suprise me.  You tend to belittle thoses who disagree with
you.

I've lived most of my life in the shadow of JFK and I am quite aware of
plane traffic, and height.

Manhattan does not suffer the traffic heights of BCanarsie.  And I've flown
in and out of all three airports numerous times and EVERY time they fly
AROUND manhattan Island.

Yes, I would shoot down any Jet that verged into Manhattan air space below
an accepted hieght.  You can not have Jet Liners even by accident crashing
into an office tower.

Ruben

<<You'd shoot down an aircraft for a slight deviation with only
a few tens of seconds of notice, and with no warning given to
the aircraft?  Even if the pilot is complaining about a control
problem?  Somehow, I'm having an increasingly difficult 
time taking you seriously.>>





-- 
Brooklyn Linux Solutions
http://www.mrbrklyn.com
http://www.brooklynonline.com

1-718-382-5752





FROM: Ari
DATE: Wed 23:12
SUBJ: [wwwac] OT-BS: Why didn't anyone know?


it's true but you're comparing apples and oranges. of the 650,000 jews
living in Palestine in 1947-48, only a few hundred were conducting
terrorist activities against the british. however, they ran a limited and
directed campaign that claimed very few victims and most importantly, they
stopped once the british left. this is in stark contrast to the modern
palestinians who can count tens of thousands of trained terrorists in
their numbers and who have been conducting terrorist operations against
BOTH israelis and americans for decades.

have we forgotten the lod airport massacre where 24 Puerto Ricans were
killed? entebbe? the achille lauro? the 1972 olympic games in munich???

that being said, i'm not condoning their actions as terrorism is NEVER a
means to an end no matter WHO does it.

as to your other point, yes, former israeli terrorists like menachem begin
assumed the highest levels of power. however, unlike rank turds like
arafat, he genuinely revoked his terrorist past and made peace with Egypt.
meanwhile, arafat says one thing and does another.

anyway, this discussion is neither here or there. as others have mentioned
(and i agree), let's focus on constructive issues like helping our fellow
citizens and moving past this tragedy.


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 JRFarrell17@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/12/2001 1:02:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> raphis@... writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Jim, Jim, Jim,
> > All American not-biased not racist Jim.
> > 
> 
> I said nothing bigoted. What did I say that was disgusting?
> And I have seen no denial of my basic point: Israeli activists commited 
> terrorist crimes against many innocent British citizens. No denial that those 
> terrorists took top posts in the new Israeli government. No denial, because 
> it is true.
> 
> as Jim writes:
> 
> 
> > "As Israelis go from Palestinian town after another bulldozing their homes,
> > starving them, shooting those who protest (like children with rocks, etc.)
> > do we have to wonder why they might go to the lengths Palestinians have gone
> > to?"
> > Yes we have to wonder what lengths. Are you suggesting that you support
> > these horrible acts TODAY? I should hope not.
> > 
> 
> I don't support terrorism. One poster had called terrorism the last resort of 
> a desperate people. The second poster cursed out the first poster. I was 
> posting in support of the first poster. 
> 
> And by the way, if bulldozing entire towns in vengence for a single bomb, or 
> for a single death of an Israeli soldier, is not terrorism, what is?
> 
> I notice that you don't deny that Israeli soldiers, in Palestine, shoot 
> rock-throwing children to death. You can't deny it: these events are 
> chronicled in all three NY newspapers through the years.
> 
> > Jim also writes
> > "people in another country are distressed to the point of madness at not
> > being able to have something as simple as shelter."
> > 
> > FYI - PLENTY of Palestinians live very well in Israel, Gaza and the West
> > Bank. They make real money, spend it and enjoy a pretty normal life. They
> > vote as Israeli citizens and have pretty good jobs. How do I know? I have
> > lived in Israel, interacted with them and enjoyed their company. In
> > addition, I have also visited other various Middle Eastern countries and can
> > say that the people enjoy an equal if not a more free and democratic life.
> > When are you going to understand that Israel is the only democracy in the
> > Middle East and only true ally of the United States and the free world?
> > 
> 
> Plenty of Palestinians lead "pretty normal lives"? What's a ''pretty normal" 
> life?
> Anyone but anyone following the news knows perfectly well that the 
> Palestinians are second class citizens and take the lowest jobs, etc.
> 
> When I hear you I remember a Northern Irish businessman I met in a pub in 
> Cork ten years ago telling me that Catholics led "pretty decent" lives in N. 
> Ireland, and "didn't suffer any predjudice." He had a vested interest. And 
> you evidently do as well.
> 
> And no government or democracy, no matter how isolated it is, should be able 
> to commit the attrocities that Israel has committed, and continues to commit, 
> against the Palestinians.
> 
> 
> > When security doesn't work, lessons do. When someone blows themselves up in
> > a public restaurant, you have to punish someone. When someone slams a plane
> > into an American national landmark, you go after the terrorists, their
> > supporters and the people who are hiding them. That's what our US government
> > 
> 
> 
> This is the saddest part of your email. 
> You say "when security doesn't work, lessons do"..."You have to punish 
> someone" Even if you don't know who commited the crime? For all the paliative 
> words in your email, you do embody the old biblical "eye for an eye, tooth 
> for a tooth" ethic that has maintained this ethic war for thousands of years.
> 
> The US will at least find out which individuals performed this terrorist act 
> and bring them to justice. But when Israel suffers a death or an explosion, 
> they retaliate with a nearly random bulldozing of another town. No focus on 
> real justice. Just good old biblical revenge in the massive destruction of 
> the whole village's men, women's and children's lives. That's not terrorism? 
> That's your idea of justice? That's your idea of a lesson?
> 
> You say "when security doesn't work, lessons do." What do they do? Maintain 
> ethnic hatreds that are thousands of years old. Eldridge Cleaver said, "If 
> you're not the solution, you're part of the problem." What are you?
> 
> -"Jim, Jim, Jim"
> 






FROM: Venessa Perez
DATE: Wed 23:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Flag Image

I remember some in the list earlier were wondering if there were some good
flag images to post on their web sites, well apperantly lycos.com had the
same sentiment:

http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp






FROM: hens
DATE: Wed 23:15
SUBJ: [wwwac] Ominous rhetoric?

http://1010wins.com/topstories/StoryFolder/story_1700772955_html?pp=1

I don't know. I know the situation is bad, but this kind of slimey
agit-prop creeps me out:

> And we saw the memorable moments.

Yeah, Bush ducking away in a bunker in Nebraska. Forever etched on my retina.

> Who will ever forget the display of national unity on the steps
> of the Capitol Building? People will long remember seeing and
> hearing members of Congress spontaneously breaking out into "God Bless
>America."
>

Emph. I had to switch channels. It was chaotic, out-of-tune and really
quite corny.

> What a wonderful thing for the world to see. What pride we can
> take in that moment.

Flag-waving and anthem singing people from whatever side scares me. Can't
we just agree that this is a human tragedy of global proportions and leave
God and the flag out of it? Or do you have to live in New York, the WORLD's
capitol, to feel that?

> So too, President Bush's address to the nation will live in
> memory. He spoke for all of us when he showed his compassion and
> concern but also noted a "quiet unyielding anger" among the
> American people. He offered a clear-sighted view of what needs to
> be done to prepare for the future.

He offered what? Did Rumsfeld and I watch the same speech? I saw a
trembling incoherent Dubya bumbling about retaliation and quoting bible
verses, his eyes saying "Maybe NOW everyone will support me."

It is said that the best remedy for a slowing economy is war. It's also
known to boost support for unpopular (if not un-elected) presidents. It's
all just too terribly convenient.




-- 
                         <http://www.monospace.com>
                         You are visitor number one.






FROM: Eileen 'Turtle' Parzek
DATE: Wed 23:19
SUBJ: [wwwac] (amended): out of my stupor for a moment...

I'm still apparently in a stupor - mentioning the street festival - I 
forgot hearing earlier today that  they cancelled it due to the situation 
in nyc.

The offer still stands...


>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 22:34:06 -0400
>To: wwwAC <wwwac@...>
>From: Eileen 'Turtle' Parzek <turtle@...>
>Subject: out of my stupor for a moment...
>
>Hi,
>
>I am sorry I haven't thought of this earlier, in the midst of my own 
>stunned reactions to what happened down there... it just now occurred to 
>me that there must be a lot of people who live and work downtown who can't 
>go home or to work for a while... and I know this might seem like a silly 
>offer, but if anyone wants (or can) hop a train or a bus upstate, I have 
>sleeping space for two people here in Albany, NY.   The air is clean, and 
>the weather gorgeous, there is an awesome annual street festival on 
>Saturday and I'm between projects right now so I could actually amuse 
>guests for the next week if need be.   Email me or call the cell # below 
>if I can help someone in this way.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~
Eileen "Turtle" Parzek ~  phone~ 518-505-6617
http://www.turtlesweb.com  mailto:turtle@...
digital artist ~ information architect ~ project mgr ~ consultant








FROM: Michael Cervieri
DATE: Wed 23:31
SUBJ: [wwwac] 'nother perspective

//www.commondreams.org/views01/0912-01.htm


                      Who Saw It Coming?
                      by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St Clair

Tuesday's onslaughts on the World Trade Center and the pentagon are 
being likened to Pearl Harbor and the comparison is just. From the 
point of view of the assailants the attacks were near miracles of 
logistical calculation,timing, courage in execution and devastation 
inflicted upon the targets.

  The Pearl Harbor base containing America's naval might was thought 
to be invulnerable, yet in half an hour 2000 were dead, and the cream 
of the fleet destroyed. This week, within an hour on the morning of 
September 11,  security at three different airports was successfully 
breached, the crews of four large passenger jets efficiently 
overpowered, the cockpits commandeered, navigation coordinates reset.

In three of the four missions the assailants attained successes 
probably far beyond the expectations of the planners. As a feat of 
suicidal aviation the Pentagon kamikaze assault was particularly 
audacious, with eyewitness accounts describing the Boeing 767 
skimming the Potomac before driving right through the low lying 
Pentagon perimeter, in a sector housing Planning and Logistics.

The two Trade Center Buildings were struck at what structural 
engineers say were the points of maximum vulnerability. The strength 
of the buildings derived entirely from the steel perimeter frame, 
designed - so its lead architect said only last week - to withstand 
the impact of a Boeing 707. These buildings were struck full force 
Tuesday morning by Boeing 737s, with fuel tanks fully loaded for the 
long flights to the West Coast. Within an hour of the impacts both 
buildings collapsed. By evening, a third 46-story Trade Center 
building had also crumbled.

Not in terms of destructive extent, but in terms of symbolic 
obliteration the attack is virtually without historic parallel, a 
trauma at least as great as the San Francisco earthquake or the 
Chicago fire.

  There may be another similarity to Pearl Harbor. The possibility of 
a Japanese attack in early December of 1941 was known to US Naval 
Intelligence and to President Roosevelt. Last Tuesday, derision at 
the failure of US intelligence was widespread. The Washington Post 
quoted an unnamed top official at the National Security Council as 
saying, "We don't know anything here. We're watching CNN too." Are we 
to believe that the $30 billion annual intelligence budget, immense 
electronic eavesdropping capacity, thousands of agents around the 
world, produced nothing in the way of a warning? In fact Osama bin 
Laden, now prime suspect, said in an interview three weeks ago with 
Abdel-Bari Atwan, the editor of the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi 
newspaper, that he planned "very, very big attacks against American 
interests."

Here is bin-Laden, probably the most notorious Islamic foe of America 
on the planet, originally trained by the CIA, planner of other 
successful attacks on US installations such as the embassies in East 
Africa, carrying a $5 million FBI bounty on his head proclaiming the 
imminence of another assault, and US intelligence was impotent, even 
though the attacks must have taken months, if not years to plan, and 
even though CNN has reported that bin-Laden and his coordinating 
group al-Qa'ida had been using an airstrip in Afghanistan to train 
pilots to fly 767s.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, when hijacking was a preoccupation, the 
possibility of air assaults on buildings such as the Trade Center 
were a major concern of US security and intelligence agencies. But 
since the 1980s and particularly during the Clinton-Gore years the 
focus shifted to more modish fears, such as bio-chemical assault and 
nuclear weapons launched by so-called rogue states. This latter 
threat had the allure of justifying the $60 billion investment in 
Missile Defense aka Star Wars. One of the biggest proponents of that 
approach was Al Gore's security advisor, Leon Fuerth, who wailed 
plaintively amid Tuesday's rubble that "In effect the country's at 
war but we don't have the coordinates of the enemy."

  But the lust for retaliation traditionally outstrips precision in 
identifying the actual assailant. By early evening on  Tuesday 
America's national security establishment were calling for a removal 
of all impediments on the assassination of foreign leaders. Led by 
President Bush, they were endorsing the prospect of attacks not just 
on the perpetrators but on those who might have harbored them. From 
the nuclear priesthood is coming the demand that mini-nukes be 
deployed on a preemptive basis against the enemies of America.

  The targets abroad will be all the usual suspects: rogue states, 
(most of which, like the Taleban or Saddam Hussein, started off as 
creatures of US intelligence). The target at home will of course be 
the Bill of Rights. Less                     than a week ago the FBI 
raided Infocom, the Texas-based web host for Muslim groups such as 
the Council on Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North 
America, the Islamic Association for Palestine, and the Holy Land 
Foundation. Palestinians have been denied visas, and those in this 
country can, under the terms of the CounterTerrorism Act of the 
Clinton years, be held and expelled without due process. The 
explosions of Tuesday were not an hour old before terror pundits like 
Anthony Cordesman, Wesley Clark, Robert Gates and Lawrence
Eagleburger were saying that these attacks had been possible "because 
America is a democracy" adding that now some democratic perquisites 
might have to be abandoned? What might this mean? Increased domestic 
snooping by US law enforcement and intelligence agencies; ethnic 
profiling; another drive for a national ID card system.

Tuesday did not offer a flattering exhibition of America's leaders. 
For most of the day the only Bush who lookedcomposed and control in 
Washington was Laura, who happened to be waiting to testify on 
Capitol Hill. Her  husband gave a timid and stilted initial reaction 
in Sarasota, Florida, then disappeared for an hour before resurfacing 
in at a base in Barksdale, Louisiana, where he gave another flaccid 
address with every appearance of bring on tranquilizers. He was then 
flown to a bunker in Nebraska, before someone finally had the wit to 
suggest
that the best place for an American president at time of national 
emergency is the Oval Office.

Other members of the cabinet were equally elusive. Secretary of State 
Colin Powell, who has managed to avoid almost every site of crisis or 
debate was once again absent from the scene, in Latin America. 
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld remained invisible most of the day, 
even though it would have taken him only a few short steps to get to 
the Pentagon pressroom and make some encouraging remarks. When he did 
finally appear the substance of his remarks and his demeanor were 
even more banal and unprepossessing than those of his commander in 
chief. At no point did Vice President Cheney appear in public. The 
presidential contenders did expose themsleves. John McCain curdled 
the air with threats against America's foes, as did John Kerry, who 
immediately blamed bin-Laden and who stuck the knife firmly into CIA 
director George Tenet, citing Tenet as having told him not long ago 
that the CIA had neutralized an impending attack by bin-Laden.

Absent national political leadership, the burden of rallying the 
nation fell as usual upon the TV anchors, all of  whom seem to have 
resolved early on to lower the emotional temper, though Tom Brokaw 
did lisp a declaration of War against Terror. Tuesday's eyewitness 
reports of the collapse of the two Trade Center buildings were not 
inspired, at least for those who have heard the famous eyewitness 
radio reportage of the crash of the Hindenberg zeppelin in Lakehurst, 
New Jersey in 1937 with the anguished cry of the reporter, "Oh the 
humanity, the
humanity". Radio and TV reporters these days seem incapable of 
narrating an ongoing event with any sense of vivid language or 
dramatic emotive power.

The commentators were similarly incapable of explaining with any 
depth the likely context of the attacks; that these attacks might be 
the consequence of the recent Israeli rampages in the Occupied 
Territories that have included
assassinations of Palestinian leaders and the slaughter of 
Palestinian civilians with the use of American aircraft; that these 
attacks might also stem from the sanctions against Iraq that have 
seen upward of a million children die;
that these attacks might in part be a response to US cruise missile 
attacks on the Sudanese factories that had been loosely fingered by 
US intelligence as connected to bin-Laden.

In fact September 11 was the anniversary of George W. Bush's speech 
to Congress in 1990, heralding war  against Iraq. It was also the 
anniversary of the Camp David accords, which signaled the US buy-out 
of Egypt as any countervailing force for Palestinian rights in the 
Middle East. One certain beneficiary of the attacks is Israel.  Polls 
had been showing popular dislike here for Israel's recent tactics, 
which may have been the motivation for  Colin Powell's few bleats of 
reproof to Israel. We will be hearing no such bleats in the weeks to 
come, as Israel's leaders advise America on how exactly to deal with 
Muslims. The attackers probably bet on that too, as a way of making 
the US's support for Israeli intransigence even more explicit, 
finishing off Arafat in the process.

"Freedom," said George Bush in Sarasota in the first sentence of his 
first reaction, "was attacked this morning by a faceless coward." 
That properly represents the stupidity and blindness of almost all 
Tuesday's mainstream political commentary. By contrast, the 
commentary on economic consequences was informative and 
sophisticated. Worst hit: the insurance industry. Likely outfall in 
the short-term: hiked energy prices, a further drop in global stock
markets. George Bush will have no trouble in raiding the famous 
lock-box, using Social Security Trust Funds to give more money to the 
Defense Department. That about sums it up. Three planes are 
successfully steered into three of America's most conspicuous 
buildings and America's response will be to put more money in missile 
defense as a way of bolstering the economy.





FROM: Michael Cervieri
DATE: Wed 23:42
SUBJ: [wwwac] mentality

shame. to my muslim friends, that's all i can think when i read crap 
like that. i could write the same bs using the old testament.

michael

At 9:46 AM -0700 9/12/01, Vlad Kolarov wrote:
>If you want to have a better understanding of the kind of mentality that
>could cause such outrages, check out this site:
>
>http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/anwarshaikh/jacp1
>.html
>
>It explains all.
>
>Vlad Kolarov
>http://www.vladkolarov.com





Introduction | 9.11.01 | 9.12.01 | 9.13.01